4.05 DPS Ranking Expectations

[MomoOG]

Are we talking about dps ranking on a dummy where everyone has 100% uptime or are we talking about dps rankings on an actual encounter? If we are talking about an actual encounter why should MCH dps be less than a class like NIN? Does MCH bring more utility than a NIN? Because it doesn't seem that way. The melee vs range argument doesn't work because uptime is included if we are talking about actual encounter dps. Heck, MCH is even harder to play than NIN.

[Aysen]

snip

Actual encounter for my post. The reason is simple. There has to be an order which means someone has to be last. As I said in my post. Everyone would get buffs. No nerfs. The difference between the dps of each class would go down. However, desireability has to be equal. Here are the features which determine the desireability value in a static for each class:

Mobility: ability to cope with mechanics
Peak DPS: actual encounter dps
Party utility: what they being to the table

Maybe other things.

The sum of those things should be equal for each class making them all equally desireable. If I'm a bard and I do as much damage as a samurai but I additionally have a mp regen and party damage buff. Why bring a samurai. Pointless.

Edit: to answer your question about MCH, they are ranged, no cast bar dps. They can cope with mechanics better than a NIN.

Edit: thought of another factor, how easy it is to play therefore how much rng there is when you're trying to recruit one as well as reward for playing it well and dealing with everything else.

[MomoOG]

Actual encounter for my post. The reason is simple. There has to be an order which means someone has to be last. As I said in my post. Everyone would get buffs. No nerfs. The difference between the dps of each class would go down. However, desireability has to be equal. Here are the features which determine the desireability value in a static for each class:Mobility: ability to cope with mechanics
Peak DPS: actual encounter dps
Party utility: what they being to the table

Maybe other things.

The sum of those things should be equal for each class making them all equally desireable. If I'm a bard and I do as much damage as a samurai but I additionally have a mp regen and party damage buff. Why bring a samurai. Pointless.

Edit: to answer your question about MCH, they are ranged, no cast bar dps. They can cope with mechanics better than a NIN.

Edit: thought of another factor, how easy it is to play therefore how much rng there is when you're trying to recruit one as well as reward for playing it well and dealing with everything else.

Hmm encounter dps already takes most of that into consideration. What I mean by encounter dps is the parser dps you would get on actually doing the encounter. This inherently takes things into consideration like ability to cope with mechanics, peak dps, uptime and so forth. So with all that considered I don't see why the net dps of NIN should be higher than a MCH.

[Aysen]

Hmm encounter dps already takes most of that into consideration. What I mean by encounter dps is the parser dps you would get on actually doing the encounter. This inherently takes things into consideration like ability to cope with mechanics, peak dps, uptime and so forth. So with all that considered I don't see why the net dps of NIN should be higher than a MCH.

*shrug* I have them getting buffed up to RDM levels. Maybe they deserve to be higher. I personally don't think so. I think playing as a MCH is easier than playing as a NIN simply because they cope with mechanics better and therefore can perform more consistently. If their dps is buffed to be on par with a RDM, then they would be an attractive party member.

[MomoOG]

*shrug* I have them getting buffed up to RDM levels. Maybe they deserve to be higher. I personally don't think so. I think playing as a MCH is easier than playing as a NIN simply because they cope with mechanics better and therefore can perform more consistently. If their dps is buffed to be on par with a RDM, then they would be an attractive party member.

I can only speak from my personal experience but I play both MNK and MCH. MNK is actually my main so I don't think I'm biased here. I find MCH harder to deal with mechanics compared to MNK. With MCH I have to keep a much closer eye on my bullets, heat gauge, and cool downs and as a result have less attention available to see what mechanics are being thrown out. Might just be me. Might just be MNK vs MCH comparison. But I don't find the whole ranged easier to deal with mechanics over melee thing to always be true.

[Elnidfse]

*shrug* I have them getting buffed up to RDM levels. Maybe they deserve to be higher. I personally don't think so. I think playing as a MCH is easier than playing as a NIN simply because they cope with mechanics better and therefore can perform more consistently. If their dps is buffed to be on par with a RDM, then they would be an attractive party member.

With any mechanic that involves moving? Potentially. But unless you've been in those shoes it's impossible to explain to you just how much of a pain in the ass things like gaols, stuns, and stops ruin your entire rotation and CD management. That "cope with mechanics better" simply isn't true. We deal with movement sure, but even with something like Zurvan, melee will find times to maximize their uptime and still do respectable damage. You seem to be putting an impossible level of focus on the coveted 100% uptime without regards to the complexity of the jobs or your susceptibility to things that aren't just flat movement. It's also wrong besides.
In a perfect world a MCH/BRD who maintained 100% DPS on their supposed "100% uptime" should deal slightly less (including raid contribution) than a melee who has anywhere from 80-90% uptime. But that's not the case right now, now is it?

I was referring to a hypothetical situation wherein two equally skilled players are playing RDM and BLM respectively

In this hypothetical situation we completely ignore that SMN has a raise. And if you're treating your RDM as an FTS you're going to hit enrage regardless.

Also, casters are ruthlessly punished by mechanics. That's why their average damage per hit is higher than the average damage per hit for melee classes. This is by design by the game developers. Just look at the potency values and you'll see. Fine, not convinced?

This is also using an assumption that casters, BLM in particular can perform better on SSS or other immobile targets than for this example given the current rankings, Samurai. But this simply is not true. And Samurai also deal with movement a lot better than SMN. Both of them have no utility, and yet SMN damage is massively undertuned in comparison. At BEST they can compete with being worse than a SAM. And in action the gap between the two widens dramatically. Never you mind the complexities involved in playing BLM th a level of effectiveness that can compete.

Again you put a lot of flak on the ranged clause and caster "advantage" in general in reference to ranged. As if the option to fire from afar closes the gap between ranged and melee when that simply isn't the case. None of what you say is the case of the game or the state that it's in. Ranged that aren't RDM are outclassed by non DRG melee in the fights that we have access to.

[Aysen]

snip

Let's take it one point at a time and lets remember that no one is saying that the current or historical state of the game is the correct state. In fact, we're here discussing what needs to change.

Stuns, gaols and stops affect all dps. Yes, the severity of the punishment for getting a stop, gaol or stun at the wrong time is improtant. However, almost every job has something that goes haywire when their rotation is interrupted. MCH is not special in this respect.

In regards to putting too much focus on 100% uptime, on the contrary, I'm saying that you have to look at the whole picture. Ranged or melee. Cast bars or no cast bars. Easy to play or hard? How much party utility? Peak DPS potential? MCH is ranged, no cast bar moderate at best difficulty with significant party utility. They check all the right boxes so why should they do as much damage as those that are missing some boxes?

My hypothetical scenario doesn't account for SMN because all I'm trying to illustrate is that however inconsequential you think those abilities are, they are an advantage other classes don't have. If you have two equally qualified candidates for a job except one speaks spanish, you take the one that speaks spanish even if the job description doesn't have spanish in it. Why? Just in case. Duh.

Finally, the caster bit. You seem to be getting yourself turned around. I'm not talking about the current state of things. I'm saying the current state is wrong. BLM SHOULD out dps samurai on a dummy but perhaps be equal in an actual fight. As for SMN, I said they need a buff. However, they have dots, raise (no utility when comparing to SAM but utility when comparing to RDM??? convenient???), devotion, pet dps. If they get some QOL changes (usually translates to a dps buff), they would be as appealing as SAM.

[Elnidfse]

*snippity*

I feel like you're missing the points so I'll have to try this again

Stuns, gaols and stops affect all dps. Yes, the severity of the punishment for getting a stop, gaol or stun at the wrong time is improtant. However, almost every job has something that goes haywire when their rotation is interrupted. MCH is not special in this respect.

Stuns, gaols, and stops affect all dps yes. As do jumps. Everybody knows that. The difference is first and foremost, the extent to which these effects you. No job handles these equally. That's the point. That's what DRG and BRDs and BLM have been telling people for years. Which do you think is worse. My hotshot falling off or a DRG losing all of his eyes. How about enochian falling off, hm? If a boss jumps with my wildfire, do you think that over 600 potency loss is the same as forgetting to weave a gauss round?

MCH is ranged, no cast bar moderate at best difficulty with significant party utility.

MCH is ranged, yes.
Moderate? Go to the "difficult to hardest" to play thread. I don't even need to state my opinion when the community already knows where the tiers lie
Significant party utility? When we give less rDPS contribution than NIN? Or are you talking about defensive utility, that thing that Yoshi stated the team does not balance DPS around.

If you have two equally qualified candidates for a job except one speaks spanish

Let me stop you right there. Your hypothetical assumes that the position works in a situation that deals with people. Do you know how important your "spanish" is for a long distance delivery driver in comparison to a customer service representative? Comparisons like this are never good at something like this because they're deconstructed too easily.

Putting that spanish scenario away. For progression of course I would take a RDM. I would not take a SMN over RDM unless RDM provided far worse DPS than a SMN. But in a hypothetical where they do equal damage, I would take the one with the person I like the most. I mean come on. What kind of person would just bench their friends if they're not even gunning for WF. If we ever hit a brickwall we'd readjust. But if there's content that you can't clear with any party composition it shows a flaw in the game. Because raid finer sure as hell don't adjust you based on an event distribution now does it.

But that's where that ends. When we clear and get gear to better shoulder the challenge, I would organize for faster and smoother kills. Your revive means very little to me in this situation when we're in a static in which nobody dies and we've shifted the weight into abusing things easily like noct sect. Assuming there aren't fights where you can outright just take a single tank and heavens forbid a single healer.

And for that matter do you know why single healer strategies exist right? It's because the additional support that you like to mention is no longer necessary. So again. You're putting way too much flak on defensive utility (that thing Yoshi said DPS is not balanced around) and you're putting too much emphasis on the ranged clause. If we take A3S everything had to be on point. Tanks, heals, the DPS all had to be spot on. In this situation your "just in-case" scenario wasn't EVEN applicable. These situations are only useful when an encounter gives you mess-up insurance to begin with. That RDM resurrect means very little when two DPS die and who are necessary to not die ever to perform mechanics that will otherwise wipe the raid. That's where raw DPS comes in.

Defensive utility is not what is balanced around and has obvious reasons why it's not balanced in respect to your DPS. More DPS will always be applicable, but a MCH dismantle will not always be needed. Progression is an event that only happens once regardless if that takes 2 hours (creator) or months (gordias). In between that we have the content on farm for much much longer which only gets EASIER the longer it goes and makes stronger dps in HIGHER demand. It's fine and all if your personal DPS is low if you contribute strong rDPS. In 3.2+ even if MCH didn't do obscene levels of DPS they would still be taken in many situation based on some compositions. Why? Hypercharge. It certainly wasn't for dismantle and Red Mind. The rDPS contribution would trump their loss in personal DPS. But that's not the situation we're in right now, is it? DRGs don't do nearly enough damage and the extra space that's filled by their rDPS contribution does not even come CLOSE to NIN.


When people put this content on farm, who do you think they're going to take?
The SAM who practically is a guaranteed slot to begin with because of how outright crushing his DPS is. Or a RDM (assuming you have 2/3 other melee) because he has a raise?