A detailed Reaction to Warrior in SB

[BootyHunter]

I refuse to play my warrior after maining it since 2.0. Im sad

[Tegernako]

· Delete shake off · · · It is totally useless so replace it with bravus


Not just us!

JP players are also upset WAR and suggesting shake it off simply be deleted lol

got it from page 241 of the warrior thread:

https://translate.google.com/transla...ANK&edit-text=



"Shake off is not a nice skill to master with Lv 68, so change to be learned at level 50 or less as Knight's total eclipse,
I would like to reassign Lv68 skill to another thing again"

I also like this. Kind of a disgrace honestly that we got shake it off as a skill at all, much less a level 68 skill that's so bad in comparison to Bloodspiller/Req. (if any devs read this, I am sorry for being so harsh)

It should absolutely be either entirely revamped or be replaced by another new skill and given to us at a much lower level and kept the same.

[Shurrikhan]

JP players are also upset WAR and suggesting shake it off simply be deleted lol

"I would like to reassign Lv68 skill to another thing again"

Kind of a disgrace honestly that we got Shake It Off as a skill at all, much less a level 68 skill that's so bad in comparison to Bloodspiller/Req.

Shake It Off is one of those skills that makes me wonder if the need to keep acquisition levels and total ability count, when so dry of creative and viable options by which to fill each, is actually a negative. The same can be said of Tackle Mastery, Devotion, Enhanced Enkindle (as opposed to the well-requested further reduction to the base CD), Secrets of the Lily II (or, being split into I and II), Enhanced Umbral Hearts not just being a part of the original effect, etc. Some of these make sense in that they keep DPS and functionality more equal over their given level spans, but others just look like they were purposely split to fill out the various levels, with little regard for anything actually being enjoyable or necessary in its addition at that time.

[Umbeliel]

Shake It Off is one of those skills that makes me wonder if the need to keep acquisition levels and total ability count, when so dry of creative and viable options by which to fill each, is actually a negative. The same can be said of Tackle Mastery, Devotion, Enhanced Enkindle (as opposed to the well-requested further reduction to the base CD), Secrets of the Lily II (or, being split into I and II), Enhanced Umbral Hearts not just being a part of the original effect, etc. Some of these make sense in that they keep DPS and functionality more equal over their given level spans, but others just look like they were purposely split to fill out the various levels, with little regard for anything actually be enjoyable or necessary in its addition at that time.

Honestly the entire concept of learning core parts of our rotation seems completely inane after a certain point. Always has, and it's always been one of my hugest issues with XIV on the whole and syncing- doing low level stuff is super boring because we have to go back to level x rotation and it's like... why. There's really no good reason why Heavy Swing, Skull Sunder, and Butcher's Block are three separate buttons that are learned at three different times and take up one of our pointlessly limited number of potential skills we can learn.

Shake it off is one of those things that where in the event whereit was just a skill we learned and it was useless it'd be no big deal, but since it's basically 1/5 of an entire new expansion's worth of new stuff... suddenly the fact that it's completely pointless is a huge issue. I'd like more skills available across the board and less pointless padding.

[YitharV2]

Honestly the entire concept of learning core parts of our rotation seems completely inane after a certain point. Always has, and it's always been one of my hugest issues with XIV on the whole and syncing- doing low level stuff is super boring because we have to go back to level x rotation and it's like... why. There's really no good reason why Heavy Swing, Skull Sunder, and Butcher's Block are three separate buttons that are learned at three different times and take up one of our pointlessly limited number of potential skills we can learn.

Yeah, that's why I'm in favor of consolidating combos in PvE as well, because it's illusion of choice. There's no reason why Butcher's Block combo shouldn't be one button, because you're always going to do the same combo no matter what. Honestly, I find SE's combo system to be too simple. See my comment here. With TERA Warrior, there was a lot of optimization and choice to be made, although there was still a priority system of which skills to use first.

[Shurrikhan]

Yeah, that's why I'm in favor of consolidating combos in PvE as well, because it's illusion of choice. There's no reason why Butcher's Block combo shouldn't be one button, because you're always going to do the same combo no matter what. Honestly, I find SE's combo system to be too simple. See my comment here. With TERA Warrior, there was a lot of optimization and choice to be made, although there was still a priority system of which skills to use first.

I need to get back into that game, just to seeing more of it at level cap... It'll amount to little more than research for me, as I tend to only maintain one game's worth of character(s') progress at a time, but definitely worthwhile in that capacity.

In the meantime, my playing around with Black Desert Online, especially its Tamer class, has redefined the limits of fluid ani-lock for me, well beyond what NieR:Automata had shown me. A shame that any attempt to introduce such fluidity or "what you see is what you get" as opposed to more proportionately "spreadsheet" gameplay will probably be met with vilification by those who adamantly and circuitously insist that a longer GCD, or GCDs in themselves, somehow mean more "tactical" gameplay.

______________________

Edit: (Ran out of daily posts)

Yeah, I personally don't like the GCD. From what someone told me on Reddit, it hides the internal server lag.

The question that's long been on my mind is whether that initial fixed 200 ms delay was necessary and merely designed around, or part of the intended design itself. Moreover, a "global" shared cooldown itself is not necessary for hiding internal server lag. An "internal" cooldown (also known as "animation lock", when not muddled in term with consequent "movement lock") can do the same. The longer the animation, while still allowing for sequential ability queues, the more ping the game can hide. I would figure that the animation lock or internal cooldown need be no more than one's turn-around ping + whatever calculation time the servers need to create, essentially a "condition received / sequential action ready" check to avoid difference in output over ping. But, I am entirely a layman in this subject, and other MMOs with considerably shorter animations still suffer from output variance even over relatively small ping counts.

Yet another mystery: When I did initial testing after the server change, back in Heavensward, I noticed no difference in output below around 75 ms, even as my ping decreased to ~25 with a VPN active, and could double-weave all but The Forbidden Chakra and Shoulder Tackle on my Monk with a 1.88 GCD. In Stormblood, though, even at a 2.05 GCD, lossless double-weaving has become rare.

Worse, many skills now queue later states prior to their change. Hitting Draw twice (the second hit still over a second before its cooldown refreshes) will now both Draw and consume the card. I have to be incredibly careful to not to spam Forbidden Chakra (which is usually a helpful habit otherwise, given the high packet loss if running without WTFast—I've been testing both with and without) or I'll end up casting Meditate after, despite having not touched the keyboard since the start of the previous GCD-gap.

To conclude: There's no way with the average ms experienced by NA (and likely EU, I'd imagine) players that XIV could currently support gameplay that necessitates low ping. There's a lot that seems questionable about XIV's netcode even if every player were capable of playing it at sub-30 ms. But there's a tremendous amount that can be done to make the game appear and feel more fluid despite that.

[YitharV2]

I need to get back into that game, just to seeing more of it at level cap... It'll amount to little more than research for me, as I tend to only maintain one game's worth of character(s') progress at a time, but definitely worthwhile in that capacity.

In the meantime, my playing around with Black Desert Online, especially its Tamer class, has redefined the limits of fluid ani-lock for me, well beyond what NieR:Automata had shown me. A shame that any attempt to introduce such fluidity or "what you see is what you get" as opposed to more proportionately "spreadsheet" gameplay will probably be met with vilification by those who adamantly and circuitously insist that a longer GCD, or GCDs in themselves, somehow mean more "tactical" gameplay.

I definitely think it's worth getting to level cap just to see how endgame tanking is, although I'd say the major difference is at level cap you have your full kit. I really do think there's a lot FFXIV can learn from TERA about how to make tanking more engaging and fun. One thing is the developers embraced the meta by allowing tanks to do DPS close to actual damage dealers (which was mainly by increasing their crit power to match DPS crit power which is ~7.9x with crystals and potion; so a DPS doing 366k white damage would do ~2.9mil with a crit). You can see here the DPS warrior tanks could do, although Darkan in SCHM was special in that the mechanics forced the DPS to move around quite a bit and the fast paced natured of his attacks increased tank DPS (both Warrior tanks and Lancers get DPS benefits from blocking). I think this is a more realistic scenario.

Yeah, I personally don't like the GCD. From what someone told me on Reddit, it hides the internal server lag.

Not exactly, the gcd is so high so the inherent lag built in the game (around 200ms) is far less noticeable, if this game had a gcd like wow (0.5 or 1s), you would see that most of the skills just don't work in that time.

TERA still had animations but it sort of made tank gameplay a bit more fun because animations could be cancelled by blocking. And on DPS classes animation locks could be cancelled by dodging or via certain DPS skills. But I'd totally be for a lot more fluidity. The only thing is that I feel FFXIV's GCD helps disabled players. TERA is fairly strict when it comes to mitigating damage, as it's designed around really low ping. And disabled players may not be able to press buttons as fast, which would be a DPS loss. That's the main downside I see with TERA's combat system.

[Adachi_Ame]

Also as a DRK I have no right to complain, but one thing I think would be a step in the right direction in helping WAR would be instead of Defiance also giving 20% more heal, just make it a BB effect where you receive heals for say 20% of the damage you deal.

[YitharV2]

Also as a DRK I have no right to complain, but one thing I think would be a step in the right direction in helping WAR would be instead of Defiance also giving 20% more heal, just make it a BB effect where you receive heals for say 20% of the damage you deal.

That would require Defiance to be changed.

The way to think about Defiance is that a Warrior now has more HP to take more hits, but now that extra HP needs to be healed as well. Which is why Defiance has that healing effect as well. Basically, the two combined effects net the same effect as Shield Oath or Grit, unless you happen to have a Scholar healing the Warrior.

The question that's long been on my mind is whether that initial fixed 200 ms delay was necessary and merely designed around, or part of the intended design itself. Moreover, a "global" shared cooldown itself is not necessary for hiding internal server lag. An "internal" cooldown (also known as "animation lock", when not muddled in term with consequent "movement lock") can do the same. The longer the animation, while still allowing for sequential ability queues, the more ping the game can hide. I would figure that the animation lock or internal cooldown need be no more than one's turn-around ping + whatever calculation time the servers need to create, essentially a "condition received / sequential action ready" check to avoid difference in output over ping. But, I am entirely a layman in this subject, and other MMOs with considerably shorter animations still suffer from output variance even over relatively small ping counts.

Yet another mystery: When I did initial testing after the server change, back in Heavensward, I noticed no difference in output below around 75 ms, even as my ping decreased to ~25 with a VPN active, and could double-weave all but The Forbidden Chakra and Shoulder Tackle on my Monk with a 1.88 GCD. In Stormblood, though, even at a 2.05 GCD, lossless double-weaving has become rare.

Worse, many skills now queue later states prior to their change. Hitting Draw twice (the second hit still over a second before its cooldown refreshes) will now both Draw and consume the card. I have to be incredibly careful to not to spam Forbidden Chakra (which is usually a helpful habit otherwise, given the high packet loss if running without WTFast—I've been testing both with and without) or I'll end up casting Meditate after, despite having not touched the keyboard since the start of the previous GCD-gap.

To conclude: There's no way with the average ms experienced by NA (and likely EU, I'd imagine) players that XIV could currently support gameplay that necessitates low ping. There's a lot that seems questionable about XIV's netcode even if every player were capable of playing it at sub-30 ms. But there's a tremendous amount that can be done to make the game appear and feel more fluid despite that.

I can't say. It's entirely possible it's something that came with inheriting the 1.0 code. Hmm, I see what you're saying. Perhaps it's for a different reason then. One thing I surmise is that the GCD helps users who play on PS4. Someone using a keyboard and mouse can instantly hit skill after skill sequentially with low delay in between but on a controller it takes a little bit more time because you have to cycle through hotbars. So that may have factored into the decision.

That's fairly interesting. I do know that a lot of people did complain about double weaving with the server move.

There's an interesting comment I found on reddit about FFXIV and the netcode.

[Adachi_Ame]

-snip-

Yes, but a Bloodbath like effect would fit WAR core nature more accurately, imo. And really a single change to a single skill, is actually not that hard of thing to do. I'm suggesting a simple change that would give more of the self sustaining portion of it back. Because more health just means more health to heal. I mean compare it to the other two tank stances, what do they do? They mitigate the damage. While health increase mitigates it to a weaker degree while a heal on a fraction of the damage you deal along with it would add more mitigation while keeping to the aggressive playstyle of WAR.