4.05 DPS Ranking Expectations

[Exiled_Tonberry]

A caster should not be weaker than a melee, so BLM>SAM sounds about right.
For melee: SAM>Monk>DRG>NIN
For Ranged: MCH>Bard
For casters: BLM>SMN>RDM

Of course, I don't see any major changes happening yet so..

[BlackThought]

How rankings should be:

1 - SAM/BLM
2 - MNK
3 - SMN
4 - RDM/NIN
5 - DRG
6 - MCH
7 - BRD

I'd love to hear the rationale for DRG being behind RDM and NIN.

[MiruWest]

A caster should not be weaker than a melee, so BLM>SAM sounds about right.
For melee: SAM>Monk>DRG>NIN
For Ranged: MCH>Bard
For casters: BLM>SMN>RDM

Of course, I don't see any major changes happening yet so..

Why should casters be ahead of melee? Asking for a friend.

[Galvuu]

Why should casters be ahead of melee, asking for a friend?

The distinction between a caster, a melee physical dps and a ranged physical dps should be inconsequential for balancing.
You look at what a job brings- utility (defensive and offensive) and personal dps, and weight those out.
A ranged and melee job with the same utility should have the same dps in a raid setting (use statistical metrics to verify this).
A caster and melee with similar utility would also follow suit there.

Of course there's the issue of role-specific utility, and you should also account for that and use it to compare jobs within the same role, but that utility is usually not as relevant (outside ranged working as mp batteries, that might be a big thing).

These numbers should the first and foremost concern (perhaps, the only concern, as things like "difficulty in execution" or "rotational complexity" are inherently subjective and it's hard to find an unbiased metric to go by that could account for such things).

[Gallus]

I'd love to hear the rationale for DRG being behind RDM and NIN.

DRG has dragon sight, litany and disembowel. That's a lot of raid damage (especially litany and disembowel). RDM's embolden is nowhere near what provides DRG. NIN is a bit closer because TA is strong. The issue with DRG is that it's a very inconvenient class to play... lots of positionals with massive punishing dps loss if failed (cough samurai cough), long ogcd animations and a timer that makes your life hell.

[Sunako]

In sss dummy requirements are like this, so I wonder are devs planned like this.
1. Sam > BLM (3800dps)
2. SMN > MNK = NIN > RDM (3600dps)
3. DRG (3400dps)
4. BRD > MCH (3100dps)

[HoLoFoNo]

DRG has dragon sight, litany and disembowel. That's a lot of raid damage (especially litany and disembowel). RDM's embolden is nowhere near what provides DRG. NIN is a bit closer because TA is strong. The issue with DRG is that it's a very inconvenient class to play... lots of positionals with massive punishing dps loss if failed (cough samurai cough), long ogcd animations and a timer that makes your life hell.

Except Litany and dragon sight put together is roughly the same as embolden in contribution. Disembowel is a wildcard because realistically it will only provide for one other class, which would possibly be slightly less than what litany currently provides. RDM is a super convenient class to play also, so someone pushing a DRG to the max should be higher than someone pushing RDM to the max, because on average RDM is affected by skill level a lot less. Basically RDM should outperform DRG until the 95th percentile.

[BlackThought]

DRG has dragon sight, litany and disembowel. That's a lot of raid damage (especially litany and disembowel). RDM's embolden is nowhere near what provides DRG. NIN is a bit closer because TA is strong. The issue with DRG is that it's a very inconvenient class to play... lots of positionals with massive punishing dps loss if failed (cough samurai cough), long ogcd animations and a timer that makes your life hell.

Disembowel has been significantly nerfed and one of the major benfeciaries (MCH) is utterly doomed. Littany, while great, pales in comparison to TA. Moreover RDM and NIN are already miles ahead anyway. RDM's spot curing and raising is well, far and away better.

[Chronons]

Why should casters be ahead of melee? Asking for a friend.

They shouldn't. Typically casters have greater uptime than melee due to mechanics which is why they have lower dps. Barring certain fights of course.

Lets take Susy Ex for example - The puddles it casts. Melee has to move the radius of the puddle to get out of it and then the radius to get back in to do damage. Caster only has to move the radius to get out and can continue to damage.

[HoLoFoNo]

snip

Thank you Galvuu.

People have got to understand that while QoL fixes are important, the performance of a class is paramount when balancing. Do you think the people who get the highest percentile on classes like SMN and BLM are struggling to play the class? People will always play the class they like even if they have to jump hurdles. But when the class doesn't reward them then that's when they will draw the line. Performance CAN be affected by clunkiness (such as DRG losing eyes setting back their 'burst' by 70 seconds instead of starting where they left off: in the case of lakshimi you basically spend 40 seconds extra) but it also can be affected by poor adjustment of something as simple as potencies or offensive utility.

Someone said that utility should be limited to what the class brings that isn't the aim of its role, such as the Balance or verraise. I agree, heavy duty utility should be left to BRD and MCH really and if they want to go that route with RDM sure but I don't think they should, RDM shouldn't become a niche subhealer or some shit. Every other class should either have something that is defensive or restorative (like mantra or apoc) or even agro management is fine (shadewalker, smokebomb) or be limited to 1 party buff. It makes it so much easier to balance for the devs, and doesn't piss off the players who have had their class changed from what it was.

Imagine turning BRD back into bowmage, but taking away all the utility and just making it a BLM with a bow. Yeah some people would love that but some people do play classes to be supportive, best not to change which classes can do what all the damn time like (DRG) and especially don't make a class strong but keep its utility while being adaptable (NIN).