With all the negativity around war let's talk about the best part of 4.0!

[Tegernako]

What if War still had the highest DPS, even with all the clunkiness, I bet half the people on here giving their feedback wouldn't be saying a word.

Speak for yourself.

[ovIm]

What I'd be interested to see - if PLD dps was a bit lower, would they be on here ranting and raving about how they need their dps buffed? Or would the community just have accepted it as such. What if War still had the highest DPS, even with all the clunkiness, I bet half the people on here giving their feedback wouldn't be saying a word.

Im not complaining because WAR isnt tank DPS king anymore. I am complaining because what SqEx did with the class is such a huge change in the core gameplay of war that, to me, it is simply not fun anymore, and because the tank balance is so completely out of whack that I feel like the people responsible for the new skills have no idea of their own game.

[whiskeybravo]

Speak for yourself.

Offended by a thought experiment? Ok then

Why is there such a disparity between people who accept the changes for what they are vs people who want the fluidity of 3.X warrior back?

The most common thread in the disparity is mainly over dps. Those who are mostly in agreement with the changes are generally people who seem to value mitigation > dps. Those who mostly want the fluidity back are generally advocates of aggressive tanking. But that's just my observation.

I'm not saying one is right and the other is wrong, I'm simply making the observation and wondering (and I suppose predicting) what the reactions would be if the situation was different.

[SpookyGhost]

The most common thread in the disparity is mainly over dps. Those who are mostly in agreement with the changes are generally people who seem to value mitigation > dps. Those who mostly want the fluidity back are generally advocates of aggressive tanking. But that's just my observation.

Can't speak for anyone else, but my main concern is that PLD has roughly equal damage to everyone else, roughly equal mitigation, and tons more utility. I actually only think DPS needs a tiny tweak for everyone and DRK could use some other small defensive CD (TBN was a good addition tho). But the really big thing that needs to be looked into is the utility, because if everyone's equal in the other two areas then having one tank that excels in the 3rd makes them, y'know, OP. It's a tricky situation to balance, but I'm of the belief that making WAR the "offensive tank", PLD the "defensive tank", and DRK the "in-between" would be a balance nightmare so I hope they steer away from that with the balancing in this expansion.

[Mycow8me]

I'm not sure about fluidity but alot of people enjoyed actively switching tank stances in battle and it was not all about DPS. Stance dancing was a form of "Pushing it to the limit" for them to see just how far they could take it. Now that SE is actively punishing the stance dancing, people don't know if they should anymore. Losing half the beast gauge over and over again is a pretty hefty loss.

Part of the DPS changes brought a smaller gap between pld and the other 2 tanks. Since all tanks are doing a little bit less damage, the gap has closed somewhat cause its relative. The smaller the gap between pld vs DRK and WAR, the more pld will get choosed cause it brings more than just DPS to the table. PLD has a much stronger survivability currently than WAR in my experience as well.

[whiskeybravo]

I'm not sure about fluidity but alot of people enjoyed actively switching tank stances in battle and it was not all about DPS. Stance dancing was a form of "Pushing it to the limit" for them to see just how far they could take it. Now that SE is actively punishing the stance dancing, people don't know if they should anymore. Losing half the beast gauge over and over again is a pretty hefty loss.

I.E., aggressive tanking.

It's fairly obvious that SE intended to decrease tank damage output. From the locking of accessories to removal of abilities like Internal Release to the changing of the damage formula itself. The addition of a "cost" for swapping stances is being perceived as punishment, but in reality it's congruent with the additional changes they made.

Additionally, the fact remains that it's possible to swap stances for no cost. That hasn't stopped anyone from complaining about it. Why is that?

[BluexBird]

Additionally, the fact remains that it's possible to swap stances for no cost. That hasn't stopped anyone from complaining about it. Why is that?

Possible, yes. But you lose a lot in doing so. It would require you to spend all that you've built in tank stance, and start from zero when you do it.

If Warriors only lost half their gauge when they went into Defiance, then I might START to agree with you. Because Dark Knights and Paladins don't get a huge potential DPS loss when they change from tank stance to damage stance.

It's not fun at all starting a fight in Defiance, not being able to use Unchained right away, or even AT ALL because it means sacrificing Inner Release. Not to mention it's useless to use Infuriate because since you're planning on emptying your gauge before swapping, it means you'd have to start from 0 unless you save it.

So Warriors who tank are basically screwed either way, forced stay in Defiance with no real incentive to ever go into Deliverance. This is what people are complaining about.

If you're still having trouble understanding the issue at hand, try to imagine if Paladins and Dark Knights lost half their mana whenever they switched stances, and what that would do to their playstyle. It's pretty much exactly the same thing.

If they fixed it so that you only lost half your beast gauge when going from Deliverance to Defiance, I believe the majority of people would be at peace.

[SpookyGhost]

Additionally, the fact remains that it's possible to swap stances for no cost. That hasn't stopped anyone from complaining about it. Why is that?

My main annoyance w/ it is in situations where I haven't planned to switch to Defiance but need to for an Equil cuz things went haywire, and because I switched at 30/50/etc I now have X5 gauge. Which, at my current level, is only possible to get rid of if I completely over-cap my gauge. Then when I switch back it becomes X3 gauge and even if I had IR I can't get rid of that without just over-capping. It's also annoying that it nerfs my damage potential, but only nerfs PLD's mitigation potential, but I'm more just frustrated that I've got this 5 extra gauge I can't do anything with. It's not necessarily the end of the world but it'd be better if it was changed to something less clunky.

[whiskeybravo]

Possible, yes. But you lose a lot in doing so. It would require you to spend all that you've built in tank stance, and start from zero when you do it.

I'd actually argue you lose more by not dumping gauge before a swap. Why would you just throw that gauge in the trash instead using it on an ability? I just barely got caught up on ilvl to start running Omega on Monday so I haven't tried the ex's yet, but I've had zero issue dumping gauge before tank/stance swaps in v4.

If Warriors only lost half their gauge when they went into Defiance, then I might START to agree with you. Because Dark Knights and Paladins don't get a huge potential DPS loss when they change from tank stance to damage stance.

So you're OK with a cost when it doesn't come at an expense to your dps. Again confirming my opinion that the major problem people have with the changes is mainly because it's reduces their dps.

It's not fun at all starting a fight in Defiance, not being able to use Unchained right away, or even AT ALL because it means sacrificing Inner Release. Not to mention it's useless to use Infuriate because since you're planning on emptying your gauge before swapping, it means you'd have to start from 0 unless you save it.

I've not had this problem. See, I just use unchained in Defiance, and if I'm able to switch to Deliverance at some point I use Inner Release when it's up. I guess I'm just a bad tank that makes it work somehow. The only complaint I have about Infuriate is the trait is kind of useless since you're mainly only saving it for berserk windows. Great idea, but it doesn't really make it any more useful.

So Warriors who tank are basically screwed either way, forced stay in Defiance with no real incentive to ever go into Deliverance. This is what people are complaining about.

Or the other way around. Except there doesn't really seem to be any complaints about staying in Deliverance the whole time.. Hmm

If you're still having trouble understanding the issue at hand, try to imagine if Paladins and Dark Knights lost half their mana whenever they switched stances. It's pretty much exactly the same thing.

I'm pretty sure I understand the situation quite clearly. The difference is I still have a lot of fun playing warrior because I'm not attached to 3.X meta.

My main annoyance w/ it is in situations where I haven't planned to switch to Defiance but need to for an Equil cuz things went haywire, and because I switched at 30/50/etc I now have X5 gauge. Which, at my current level, is only possible to get rid of if I completely over-cap my gauge. Then when I switch back it becomes X3 gauge and even if I had IR I can't get rid of that without just over-capping. It's also annoying that it nerfs my damage potential, but only nerfs PLD's mitigation potential, but I'm more just frustrated that I've got this 5 extra gauge I can't do anything with. It's not necessarily the end of the world but it'd be better if it was changed to something less clunky.

I agree that if they fix anything with the cost to swap it should be to fix the odd quantities of gauge left over. That's absolutely goofy, and I can't, in any way, find justification for it.

[Tegernako]

That's absolutely goofy, and I can't, in any way, find justification for it.

That's strange, I think the same about your posts as well.

I'm pretty sure I understand the situation quite clearly. The difference is I still have a lot of fun playing warrior because I'm not attached to 3.X meta.

Well some people have lower standards.