BLM should be the SAM of casters.

[Valinis]

What's worse is that we can also use an altered 2.x rotation, where we don't use F4, at a mere 3-5% DPS loss over 3.x/4.x rotations. If that tells you nothing then I don't know what to say.

EDIT #1: Here's a link to the thread that has most of the math. http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ers-on-4.0-BLM

Just tested 2.0 rotation vs 4.0 rotation on a dummy.
3200DPS with 2.0 4100DPS with 4.0
900DPS loss in best case scenario. I ran Susano Ex today and did 3400DPS overall, which is still 200DPS more than 2.0 on a dummy even with all the movement.
A lot more than 3-5% I can assure you.

[magnanimousCynic]

Just tested 2.0 rotation vs 4.0 rotation on a dummy.
3200DPS with 2.0 4100DPS with 4.0
900DPS loss in best case scenario. I ran Susano Ex today and did 3400DPS overall, which is still 200DPS more than 2.0 on a dummy even with all the movement.
A lot more than 3-5% I can assure you.

If YOU did the math you'd find that your 2.x dummy rotation only did about 6% weaker then your Susano EX run. The purpose of the new 2.x rotation is to give up 5% DPS in exchange for much needed mobility and a much less punishing rotation.

But if you think the math is that off, then feel free to go to the thread I linked and share your findings and rotation there.

[Valinis]

If YOU did the math you'd find that your 2.x dummy rotation only did about 6% weaker then your Susano EX run. The purpose of the new 2.x rotation is to give up 5% DPS in exchange for much needed mobility and a much less punishing rotation.

But if you think the math is that off, then feel free to go to the thread I linked and share your findings and rotation there.

But I was moving in Susano Ex, and not moving when doing 2.0 rotation. If I was moving doing 2.0 rotation as well it would be lower. I still did more DPS. Best case a lot more DPS.

Math is all well and good on paper, but you can't argue with numbers from actual practice. Maybe I am just so amazing at BLM that my 4.0 rotation is far superior to 2.0 rotation? (spoiler: unlikely)

[StouterTaru]

If YOU did the math you'd find that your 2.x dummy rotation only did about 6% weaker then your Susano EX run. The purpose of the new 2.x rotation is to give up 5% DPS in exchange for much needed mobility and a much less punishing rotation.

But if you think the math is that off, then feel free to go to the thread I linked and share your findings and rotation there.

The numbers on that thread used 6x F1 for each AF phase. What you have MP for is 5x F1, B3, then pause for MP tick before you can cast thunder.

[AlphaSonic]

BLM should deal more damage than SAM. There's no discussion.

BLM = 0 Utility
SAM = Slashing Debuff. The fact that NIN is mandatory because its OP trick attack doesn't mean that SAM doesn't have utility. SAM should be another option to bring instead of NIN. NIN and SAM should compete for the same spot in a party because both provide Slashing debuff, SAM higher DPS and NIN higher supportive abilities.

And for people telling that BLM is ranged and should deal less damage than melee. BLM is the DPS that is the most punished by mechanics that require movement.

[Allyrion]

BLM should deal more damage than SAM. There's no discussion.

BLM = 0 Utility
SAM = Slashing Debuff. The fact that NIN is mandatory because its OP trick attack doesn't mean that SAM doesn't have utility. SAM should be another option to bring instead of NIN. NIN and SAM should compete for the same spot in a party because both provide Slashing debuff, SAM higher DPS and NIN higher supportive abilities.

And for people telling that BLM is ranged and should deal less damage than melee. BLM is the DPS that is the most punished by mechanics that require movement.

The Slashing debuff is pretty moot since you're leaving out that WAR brings it too. So for SAM to have any group contribution, you need DRK/PLD as tanks and no NIN.

While BLM has no innate utility, being a caster comes with some through the role actions - particularly Mana Shift and Apocatastasis. That doesn't make them better off for the caster slot but it does count overall when the melee role actions don't offer much utility.

BLM's AoE damage is a factor as well most likely but I wouldn't argue that it should be. AoE is fairly negligible for content where comp actually matters.

BLM should do similar damage to a Samurai on a dummy, and not much more or less. That I agree with. It's ranged advantage would be negated by casting being interrupted by mechanics.

[ReplicaX]

The Slashing debuff is pretty moot since you're leaving out that WAR brings it too. So for SAM to have any group contribution, you need DRK/PLD as tanks and no NIN.

While BLM has no innate utility, being a caster comes with some through the role actions - particularly Mana Shift and Apocatastasis. That doesn't make them better off for the caster slot but it does count overall when the melee role actions don't offer much utility.

BLM's AoE damage is a factor as well most likely but I wouldn't argue that it should be. AoE is fairly negligible for content where comp actually matters.

BLM should do similar damage to a Samurai on a dummy, and not much more or less. That I agree with. It's ranged advantage would be negated by casting being interrupted by mechanics.

Not to mention there are many fights in this game where the mechanics do favor Caster DPS over Melee DPS. I feel many BLMs overlook this.

[AlphaSonic]

Snip

Goad, Feint, Leg Sweep. More or less similar utility as a caster.

Slashing debuff, If you don't have WAR and NIN in a party it's utility. Stop denying the fact, that SAM doesn't bring anything. It CAN bring more utility than BLM in some compositions. BLM will NEVER bring utility, NEVER.

Not to mention there are many fights in this game where the mechanics do favor Caster DPS over Melee DPS. I feel many BLMs overlook this.

Have you ever played BLM? Do you think that constant movement mechanics favor BLM? Are you that ignorant? Everytime you move as a BLM is a DPS loss, as a melee, every time you are out of range is a DPS loss, but you can move while DPSing, more over, you don't have nearly anything to cast most of the time, so you don't get interrupted.

[Lewtskie]

Have you ever played BLM? Do you think that constant movement mechanics favor BLM? Are you that ignorant? Everytime you move as a BLM is a DPS loss, as a melee, every time you are out of range is a DPS loss, but you can move while DPSing, more over, you don't have nearly anything to cast most of the time, so you don't get interrupted.

Yeah the issues of mobility and hard casting always made it look the most unappealing. That said I can get behind people pushing through mechanics if the Job pleases them on an aesthetic level, but if the only thing to make people overlook such clunkiness was big numbers then something does seem fundamentally wrong.

[TankHunter678]

Goad, Feint, Leg Sweep. More or less similar utility as a caster.

Slashing debuff, If you don't have WAR and NIN in a party it's utility. Stop denying the fact, that SAM doesn't bring anything. It CAN bring more utility than BLM in some compositions. BLM will NEVER bring utility, NEVER.

Sure lets not have BLMs bring along Mana Shift to help keep the healers mana up, or Apoctastasis where they can throw it on the tank to help them get through magic TBs like Exdeath's Thunder 3.

The best SAM can bring besides a slash debuff is Goad, which is only useful in AoE situations if you have another big TP consumer in the party, or feint which has a questionable influence on damage but BLMs get Addle as their version. So technically BLMs do bring as much if not more useful utility then SAM does. Especially since Leg Sweep is also useless on the vast majority of bosses.