LOLSE, We're not wearing 270 STR to hold hate, c'mon now...

[Yorumi]

If you design the contents to not allow you to have "spare" mitigation even while using tank stance and invulnerability cds most people will struggle to clear and complain about the raids being too hard

I think what really annoys me is that this complaining seems to work. Or to put it a different way, when balance is spoken of all we hear is about how it shouldn't be balanced for the top 1% of people who raid. yet when only 1% can clear savage content it's "whah I can't clear it make it easier so we can all do it." Well which is it is savage made for the best of the best or casual content for everyone? SE seems to think the latter now.

[aleph_null]

Gordias required high DPS. To do high DPS, good gear is required but not enough, you need high level of skill.
This would be the same here. High HP would be required because it's basically what your ilvl is worth when you're a tank. Knowing the fight and how you manage your CD would be tied to your skill as a player. Besides, on top of that scaling, I'd also like mitigation to be more active and thus, more tied to player skill. Like I said to Zojha, having a player enough skilled with his mitigation that he can remove one or two VIT acc for STR acc melded vit VIT, yeah, it's fine, but not full STR.

Yeah it'd be nice if raids actually go back to midas savage level of dps/mitigation/healing/mechanic checks, though sadly the majority of the playerbase don't agree with me/us, and the devs seem to have made up their mind about how much of the playerbase they want to be able to clear savage raids (what happened to normal mode being the one accessible for casual players to experience the story lol). I don't think I need to remind you, but the majority of tanks who cleared creator savage were in tank stance most of the time while tanking something (even the OTs when they pick adds or tank the boss after tank swaps), making the mitigation checks harder than that would inevitably reduce the number of players who are able to clear the raid.

I think what really annoys me is that this complaining seems to work. Or to put it a different way, when balance is spoken of all we hear is about how it shouldn't be balanced for the top 1% of people who raid. yet when only 1% can clear savage content it's "whah I can't clear it make it easier so we can all do it." Well which is it is savage made for the best of the best or casual content for everyone? SE seems to think the latter now.

It just feels weird to me. I thought that the two difficulty raid system we have now was adopted to allow casual players to experience the raid and story from the normal mode, as well as to allow raiders to have challenging contents. It should be fine to have only a small percentage of the playerbase clearing the savage raids, but they ended up lowering the difficulty of the savage raids to increase clear rate. Now they're promising a new challenging content that'll be released every odd patch, which is good and all, but wasn't that what savage mode was meant to be? I wouldn't be surprised anymore if people end up complaining about that new raid mode being too difficult and the devs choose to lower the difficulty again.

[Brannigan]

Here's the thing
normal mode raids (and 24-man) are speak-and-spell difficulty. Really, if you read your tooltips and have a small amount of hand-eye coordination (you can beat world 1 of Super Mario Bros 3, for example), you can clear normal mode fairly easily. This isn't a difficulty for "casual players," this is a difficulty for people who leave the game for months at a time and re-sub just to do the story every 9 months.
Gordias (savage) was fucking stupid difficulty. Without the ability to ignore Judgment Nisi with exploits, the clear rate would have been half of what it was. Midas (savage) was better, but actually still extremely punishing and very hard. These were both raids that only 1-5% of the playerbase would finish while they were relevant. I think on my server there were like ~60 people (not groups) who got a Gordias clear before 3.1.

This game has nothing in between those two difficulty tiers except EX primals, which are often irrelevant a few weeks into a patch and are only one fight per patch. So what is the portion of the playerbase who is strong enough to clear EX primals but not strong enough to clear something like Gordias (even with all the time in the world) supposed to do? I actually think that almost anyone who *wants* to play their class well can reach this level, so that's a lot of people with not a lot to do. Also added onto this is the fact that the actual rewards for raiding are not that good, so some of those who are good enough to clear Gordias/Midas level stuff might not be motivated to spend the long hours required to do so.

I think that Creator (S) through Second Coil difficulty is much healthier for the game. It's a more reasonable challenge for a typical player and the super top tier guys can have fun maximizing their DPS or playing with weird compositions. Personally, I cleared Gordias and Midas in their respective patches despite scheduling issues that prevented my group from running that often, but I did not enjoy the learning process. The fights were fairly fun once you were beating them reliably, but they were way, WAY too punishing during learning. There were way too many insta-wipes and unwinnable situations too early into the fights. Comparatively, I had the most fun learning Second Coil and a couple of its savage fights. I skipped Melusine (S) because I got burnt out on Nael (S), but Avatar/Rafflesia (S) were neat.

[Vallamaria]

As far as Savage raiding goes. If people are capable of handling the EX Primals but not the Savage raiding then I think it's really a matter of needing to work on improving yourself as a player and grouping up with other competent players. Since Savage raiding is meant to be very difficult end-game content. naturally this also means needing to communicate with others. So if someone happens to be much too casual or anti-social to possibly handle it then they honestly shouldn't even be worrying about such things in the first place.

[Reynhart]

Now they're promising a new challenging content that'll be released every odd patch, which is good and all, but wasn't that what savage mode was meant to be? I wouldn't be surprised anymore if people end up complaining about that new raid mode being too difficult and the devs choose to lower the difficulty again.

I think they lost a part of the raiding community with savage.
Back in 2.x, you had people who thought Coil was too difficult. For them, we had Alex normal
Back in 2.x, you had people who thought Coil was too easy. For them, we had Alex Savage
Back in 2.x, you had people who thought Coil was just fine. For them, we had...pretty much nothing.

So, I think Omega Savage will be close to Coil difficulty, and the new super hard content will cover the...masochist...part of the raiding population

[aleph_null]

Yeah I guess you're right, the gap between ex trials and gordias/midas savage were too big, leaving no content between them makes it hard for people to get good enough for savage. I was thinking that they should've added more contents between normal and savage mode.

[Dicejss]

Not sure if you're blind or simply just ignorant. But it's already been repeatedly stated many times now in both this thread and many other threads recently that a Tank can do their job just fine while also wearing STR accessories.
doesn't reduce incoming damage or increase healing received So as long as a Tank has enough HP to handle Tank busters just fine in boss fights they don't need more HP.

No it doesn't reduce damage taken or increase healing received but you know what it does do? It makes sure the tank doesn't die from being hit by tank busters and other mechanics the boss could be doing or from doing a big pull in a dungeon. Of course your STR tanks are going to exist until SE makes it where you can't do it anymore or they just change the way they do tank damage again. But by all means if that 5% extra damage makes you feel better stacking STR acc instead of VIT acc go for it.

[Hruodig]

No it doesn't reduce damage taken or increase healing received but you know what it does do? It makes sure the tank doesn't die from being hit by tank busters and other mechanics the boss could be doing or from doing a big pull in a dungeon. Of course your STR tanks are going to exist until SE makes it where you can't do it anymore or they just change the way they do tank damage again. But by all means if that 5% extra damage makes you feel better stacking STR acc instead of VIT acc go for it.

Using your cooldowns appropriately does this better than stacking unnecessary vit.

[Aquaslash]

*snip*

I'd just like to point out that in my forays of DPSing, I've found Diversion and Elusive jump to be woefully awful. I am forced to use Diversion as SAM all the time, and I still remain a Higanbana tick away from stealing aggro. Elusive Jump on the other hand is so awful that I have to plan for it by saving a jump so I don't waste a GCD and also saying a prayer that it doesn't reduce my enmity by throwing me off the arena or into a cleave even though I faced it in the proper direction.


No, seriously. Elusive is such a damn crapshoot that I have time and time again considered deleting it and the worst part is I usually take aggro right back

Aggro reduction don't mean shit when your tanks are mouth breathers

[Erys]

Elusive Jump on the other hand is so awful that I have to plan for it by saving a jump so I don't waste a GCD and also saying a prayer that it doesn't reduce my enmity by throwing me off the arena or into a cleave even though I faced it in the proper direction.


No, seriously. Elusive is such a damn crapshoot that I have time and time again considered deleting it and the worst part is I usually take aggro right back

Aggro reduction don't mean shit when your tanks are mouth breathers

Use a gcd while moving away from the boss, use elusive. You get minimal clipping, you shed aggro and you can land a positional if you run away properly. No need to save a jump.