balance through Balance

[Caduagm]

They ARE NOT nerfing balance, otherwise it would be gordias/midas again; where nobody used AST. For God's sake stop trying to take our identity off from us. Stop afking as healer and dps a bit as whm. AST rotation was NERFED TO THE GROUND and it's the most boring rotation of all the 3 healers. So pls... Can this topic be closed now?

[Ilenya]

They ARE NOT nerfing balance, otherwise it would be gordias/midas again; where nobody used AST. For God's sake stop trying to take our identity off from us. Stop faking as healer and dps a bit as whm. AST rotation was NERFED TO THE GROUND and it's the most boring rotation of all the 3 healers. So pls... Can this topic be closed now?

If Balance is the only thing that makes people want to bring AST, then AST by definition is not balanced and would need to be adjusted, so Balance would have to be nerfed to even out the power of the job.

[loreleidiangelo]

If Balance is the only thing that makes people want to bring AST, then AST by definition is not balanced and would need to be adjusted, so Balance would have to be nerfed to even out the power of the job.

It's like people forget that Astrologian had an entire history of issues that made it undesirable for raids, and not just "omg we couldn't get Balance a lot so that makes our state now completely justified". To wit, the problems with 3.0 AST were as follows:

-Noct Sect was garbage, and could in no way compete with SCH. I'd argue that it was because SCH was also a little OP and needed some nerfs, but some might say it was just that Noct Sect needed a buff. Either way, upon AST's inception it was a terrible stance that pretty much no one used except out of dual AST parties in DF where one had to begrudgingly take it because AST regens didn't stack.

-Initial heal potencies were about 20 lower across the board. Their MP costs were lower to compensate, and truth be told I never actually felt like the BASE heal potencies were an issue, but this really stuck in people's craw for some reason and led to a perception of the job being weak. (I think had they kept the base heals the same and fixed some of the other issues below they probably would have been fine. Just me, though.)

-They didn't have a throughput cooldown. Seriously, do people forget about this? They didn't have a 30% healing throughput increase like Divine Seal or Fey Illumination at their launch, which meant they really lacked healing "oomph" in cases where their cohealer or party weren't up to par.

-Lightspeed used to reduce the potency of healing magic too. Somebody at SE goofed HARD on that. IIRC it was one of the first aspects of AST that was adjusted.

-Balance was only 10% potency and lasted for 15 seconds. Now before you go, "aha! see! balance HAS to be OP or else we're useless!" bear in mind that this was ALSO in conjunction with the rest of the AST issues I listed above. There are a few other caveats to the card system too which I'll list below that made obtaining and using AOE Balance pretty difficult, if not nigh on impossible for AST at first. So in my opinion the actual STRENGTH of the Balance card wasn't an issue, but its infrequency and AST's lackluster performance in the healing department really didn't make that 5% extra DPS boost worth it for most raid groups. (And since those issues are clearly fixed now, THAT is why I think Balance needs a reduction in its power once more, if not just taken out completely.)

-Shuffle was on a 120 second cooldown, and could give you the SAME card you were trying to get rid of. Compare it to now, where it's basically on the same cooldown as Draw and won't give you the same card anymore (and was hence renamed "Redraw" to reflect that). This gives you essentially a 20% chance of drawing Balance now if you didn't get it on you first draw. It also allows you to SUPER easily get a Spire or Ewer for the AOE Royal Road effect (40% chance to get either of those if you don't get one on the first draw).

-Spread was on a 180 second cooldown. So once you had that almighty Balance, and used it, if you drew another one right after you had to use it on single target. Obviously it was better than getting jack squat, or endless Spears, but you couldn't reliably chain AOE Balance back-to-back like it's theoretically possible to do now. Spread is now on a thirty-second cooldown like Draw, so once you use your Balance from Spread by the time Draw is up again (assuming you drew right as you used the Balance AOE), then you can instantly store another one with a very minor (we're talking 1 second here) delay.

-Collective Unconscious only gave the 10% damage down in Nocturnal, and the regen in Diurnal. Not 100% sure on this but I think the regen was wussier too. So on top of it being stupidly restrictive with the no-movement nonsense, it also didn't do anything special that Asylum or Sacred Soil couldn't do (with less drawbacks). The regen would also cancel when you canceled the Collective effect, so that was a further kick in the teeth.


It's all that COMPOUND crap that made ASTs an undesirable choice for raiding during Gordias, not just the weaker strength of the Balance card at their launch. SE in their infinite wisdom took the buff bat and pretty much launched all of those issues into the stratosphere, INCLUDING buffing the hell out of Balance (now it's 20% damage up and lasts for THIRTY SECONDS WTF), as well as buffing Lumi Aether so that it was miles ahead of Shroud of Saints and upping their base heal potencies to be equal of that of WHM/SCH. Fixing a FEW of the issues (mostly the card stuff and Lightspeed/healing throughput cooldown) would have been enough to make them competitive IMO, but they went completely overboard and now that people are so used to AST's ridiculous ease of use and power the idea of nerfs makes them extremely uncomfortable for whatever reason, instead of determined to increase their personal ability and deal with any adjustments that might come.

[LegoTechnic]

-Noct Sect was garbage, and could in no way compete with SCH. I'd argue that it was because SCH was also a little OP and needed some nerfs, but some might say it was just that Noct Sect needed a buff. Either way, upon AST's inception it was a terrible stance that pretty much no one used except out of dual AST parties in DF where one had to begrudgingly take it because AST regens didn't stack.

I'm going to agree with your post, but specify that rather than Noct sect being hot garbage, it was more the fact that the AST base kit just couldn't perform the same role as SCH. AST is in many ways a clone of WHM at heart with Luminous Aether and Ewer refresh as its only mana regen, and spammable DPS that steadily ran the class out of mana with poor means of recovery. While a SCH could go through their low-cost DoT rotation for days with little mana issue both AST and WHM fit a more "burst DPS" idea, and with fewer ogcd options it was always riskier for them to remain in cleric stance for as long a time simply due to class design. That said while some steps were made to give AST some SCH competition such as Disable, Aspected Benefic being instant cast, Aspected Helios having better shield effects than Succor, and Malefic II being stronger than Broil, these benefits didn't make up for the playstyle deficiencies from an off-healer perspective despite the card benefits. It still played like a WHM with even worse mana management despite its lower-cost heals.

Additionally Noct stance in particular was "ok" if paired with a WHM or another AST and "good" after it got a potency boost attached, but it's always been trash when paired with a SCH due to shields not stacking like their diurnal regens do with WHM. And there was almost always a SCH in compositions because they not only had strong complimentary mitigation but far more sustainable DPS, and in Gordias/Midas DPS checks were a massive wall during progression.

[Kabzy]

They ARE NOT nerfing balance, otherwise it would be gordias/midas again; where nobody used AST. For God's sake stop trying to take our identity off from us. Stop faking as healer and dps a bit as whm. AST rotation was NERFED TO THE GROUND and it's the most boring rotation of all the 3 healers. So pls... Can this topic be closed now?

Forget nerfing, if they removed Balance completely, AST would still be a WHM with some better potency base heals and other party buffs in diurnal, and it would be a better SCH in nocturnal. That alone should highlight that AST needs to be toned down in some departments.

For the record I'm not saying they should remove the Balance card, what I'm trying to point out is that AST has a lot more going for it. There's a reason the rest of us are calling it OP, perhaps the most OP job in the game right now.

[MoroMurasaki]

They ARE NOT nerfing balance, otherwise it would be gordias/midas again; where nobody used AST. For God's sake stop trying to take our identity off from us. Stop faking as healer and dps a bit as whm. AST rotation was NERFED TO THE GROUND and it's the most boring rotation of all the 3 healers. So pls... Can this topic be closed now?

No, this topic won't be closed now because this isn't about only the opinions and hurt feelings of some entitled AST mains who can't seem to grasp the conscept of healer balance.


AST may have had their personal DPS take a hit, any idea why? Because they have the single best buff in the game right now. If AST didn't represent a huge gain to party DPS they would still be a flexible, comprehensive healer that offered other forms of utility.

You want to have your cake and eat it too. Any complaints about AST right now can (and should) be summarily tossed aside with no more response than "that Balance tho" and it is actually a perfectly valid response from the perspective of healer balance.

AST needs to lose Balance not only so that other healers aren't ommitted from progression and content but also because they need to grow into their true identity - the utility represented by the cards as a whole. If Balance is AST's identity then are WARs just Fell Cleave? WHM's just Assize? No, we have entire kits.

So do you. Use them.

Also, not that you would know, but I do wonderful DPS as WHM. I am a huge supporter of healer DPS in general. Even though I say this I know I can't make up the difference in DPS gained by a Balanced DPS opener party wide. That has nothing to do with "faking healing" and everything to do with math and a basic understanding of how this game works.

[Caduagm]

Useless stuff.

Ahh, I see. Most of the guys who complain about ast are whms. Hmmm. Ok so. You can't think so much I guess. AST's balance is not a buff that 100% of the time you'll have. Don't say stupid things without know. Ah nvm... I guess you are some of those whms that don't dps; probably overhealing/afking.
And about AST for progression?? Hahahahahahahahahahahahaa yeah you should be kidding. Yeah, again balance is RNG, but even so AST HAS NOT the same safety heal than WHM does. So, yeah go learn about dps as WHM and then you come back to say "balance needs to be deleted". Ah and btw; learn astrologian too before you saying stupid stuff about it.

[MoroMurasaki]

Ahh, I see. Most of the guys who complain about ast are whms. Hmmm. Ok so. You can't think so much I guess. AST's balance is not a buff that 100% of the time you'll have. Don't say stupid things without know. Ah nvm... I guess you are some of those whms that don't dps; probably overhealing/afking.
And about AST for progression?? Hahahahahahahahahahahahaa yeah you should be kidding. Yeah, again balance is RNG, but even so AST HAS NOT the same safety heal than WHM does. So, yeah go learn about dps as WHM and then you come back to say "balance needs to be deleted". Ah and btw; learn astrologian too before you saying stupid stuff about it.

I'm going too address each of your "points" here, though calling them that is generous. I know it's a waste of time. I know you're an entitled AST main locked in an echochamber of other AST fans telling you your success is due to something more than your overpowered choice of class. I still don't care, your post was irritating and thoughtless enough I can't help myself.

Where did I say Balance had 100% uptime? How can you draw any conclusion about my mental capacity from this argument other than my obviously superior linguistic/grammatical abilities? I specifically addressed how I can and do DPS as WHM regularly and have done so as every healer I've played. Yes, I overheal because WHM abilities almost guarantee that with the way regens work. I'm a HoT based class, you overheal in Diurnal too. I am aware Balance is RNG byt you can feel free to restate it like a child throwing a temper tantrum. I'm going too assume you also mean to point out that AST doesn't have tge same number of panic button heals as WHM though honestly with your grammar and phrasing I can't be sure. I am sure an experienced WHM main could teach me something more about WHM DPS but I definitely don't need much help I'm that respect as you love to insinuate. I also know quite a bit about AST from all the research I did on it before making this thread but I will never main it until it is tuned down because I have no desire to be that OP and the Balance fishing is just plain boring.

Please try to think a little before replying to this. If you step back I'm sure even someone like you can see that Balance has taken over your whole class.

[Elamys]

Where did I say Balance had 100% uptime?

It's not you specifically saying this, and that guy is really stupid and an embarrassment, but a lot of people have this perception, for some reason, that AST can perform at full tilt with balances/ewers/dps/heals going out constantly. AST IS very strong, it DOES need nerfed, but many aspects of the job that people complain about often have a tradeoff or require future planning. If I use this Ewer for MP regen on myself or someone else, I can't Royal Road it for a party buff. If I detonate this Earthly Star now I may not have it when it's stronger and possibly more needed. If I use this card now, I may not have it for when it can be more useful. If I use this Celestial Opposition now, I may not have it to extend a buff that would be more beneficial to extend.Combined with the class's propensity for RNG and streaks of bad luck, there can be times when AST isn't as strong as people make it out to be. And yet, a number of people seem to have this belief that AST can do everything all at once. Just like when people were spreading around this lie that Essential Dignity got buffed for SB by shortening its recast timer; it's always been like that, they just removed the passive that made it so. But in the patch notes, it said "Essential Dignity recast timer shortened to 40 seconds" and people lost their minds that ED was getting "buffed." So yeah, I guess it was a buff below level 28? Nobody cares about stuff at that level.

AST has been my main since 3.1 and I don't see myself switching to another class regardless of what buffs or nerfs come my way. I love how it plays. I DON'T think Balance needs to be removed. It does need a nerf. Balance IS a core part of the card system, it's just too far ahead of the other cards right now that it is always temping to redraw for it. A nerf combined with its RNG nature seems just fine. Because, as mentioned, if you removed Balance right now, AST would still be a very strong healer. AST needs a few other nerfs, but removing Balance would be a ridiculous idea. Right now we have two cards that affect potencies, two cards that affect speed, and two cards that affect resources. Seems like a decent balance to me. Removing a core part of the class (yes, I KNOW removing Balance is not the same as removing the entire card system, but it's always been a benefit and it feels very nice to draw a Balance, it felt nice way before the nerf) isn't the solution.

[loreleidiangelo]

It's not you specifically saying this, and that guy is really stupid and an embarrassment, but a lot of people have this perception, for some reason, that AST can perform at full tilt with balances/ewers/dps/heals going out constantly. AST IS very strong, it DOES need nerfed, but many aspects of the job that people complain about often have a tradeoff or require future planning. If I use this Ewer for MP regen on myself or someone else, I can't Royal Road it for a party buff. If I detonate this Earthly Star now I may not have it when it's stronger and possibly more needed. If I use this card now, I may not have it for when it can be more useful. If I use this Celestial Opposition now, I may not have it to extend a buff that would be more beneficial to extend.Combined with the class's propensity for RNG and streaks of bad luck, there can be times when AST isn't as strong as people make it out to be. And yet, a number of people seem to have this belief that AST can do everything all at once. Just like when people were spreading around this lie that Essential Dignity got buffed for SB by shortening its recast timer; it's always been like that, they just removed the passive that made it so. But in the patch notes, it said "Essential Dignity recast timer shortened to 40 seconds" and people lost their minds that ED was getting "buffed." So yeah, I guess it was a buff below level 28? Nobody cares about stuff at that level.

AST has been my main since 3.1 and I don't see myself switching to another class regardless of what buffs or nerfs come my way. I love how it plays. I DON'T think Balance needs to be removed. It does need a nerf. Balance IS a core part of the card system, it's just too far ahead of the other cards right now that it is always temping to redraw for it. A nerf combined with its RNG nature seems just fine. Because, as mentioned, if you removed Balance right now, AST would still be a very strong healer. AST needs a few other nerfs, but removing Balance would be a ridiculous idea. Right now we have two cards that affect potencies, two cards that affect speed, and two cards that affect resources. Seems like a decent balance to me. Removing a core part of the class (yes, I KNOW removing Balance is not the same as removing the entire card system, but it's always been a benefit and it feels very nice to draw a Balance, it felt nice way before the nerf) isn't the solution.

Even with a nerf to 10% (5% AOE), I still feel like Balance is the only real desirable card in the deck in most scenarios, considering that Arrow is already the same efficacy but in a more roundabout way of delivery (ie, 10% haste up =/= 10% damage up), and there's still the kind of overarching problem of it having a bongos duration of 30s. Trick Attack, a hotly controversial skill among DPS mains, is only a 10-second duration. Yeah, it's guaranteed every 60 seconds, but unless you as an AST can't set up an AOE Balance every TWO minutes Balance will come out ahead over Trick Attack most every time. And as I said, Trick Attack gets a lot of heat from DPS mains because they think it's too busted as a utility for NINs too.

With the TP cost buffs in HW, I'd hazard to say that Spire doesn't have much value outside of someone dying, or AOE situations; same with Ewer. Spear of course is still stupidly situational and difficult to use, and pretty much only exists as RR and MA fodder. Bole I actually like, but aside from trash pulls in dungeons I haven't encountered anything where I really feel like it's "valuable utility" - especially not over the Almighty Balance. MAYBE if Balance got a nerf Bole might see some more use (less damage tank takes = more time for healers to DPS, possibly making up for the Balance nerf but I doubt it).

I know it's a hard position for a lot of ASTs to grasp, because they like that card and they like feeling useful by using that card, but I'm of the opinion that unless it gets nerfed down to pretty serious degress (5% ST, 2.5% AOE) it'll always be the top pick in an Astrologian's deck because nothing in this game really trumps the utility of MOAR DEEPS. I find it being the only desired outcome of my Draw insanely boring, I don't feel nice or special or awesome when I get it, I just think "UGH FINALLY" because that's all anyone in my group is actually interested in at this time.