Why the other casters need buffs and Red Mage does not need a nerf.

[CecMiller]

Hey there, I posted this in another thread but I think it's more relevant here because my opinion coincides with the OP's. Generally speaking I'd very much prefer the casters BLM and SMN buffed to do more than the RDM with the BLM at top if played to the highest level. SMN should also be doing more than the RDM given its more complex rotation and how punishing missing certain abilities/dying are to the class. Either both are buffed to be above RDM or RDM is nerfed to be below both is my point of view personally, but I much prefer the former for a plethora of reasons.

When you look at the data sets from 10th percentile to 99th percentile, what you find is RDM is doing fantastic in comparison to BLM and SMN. Now as for RDM with regard to buffs and nerfs, hear me out. I don't really want them to get nerfed - I'd much prefer if the other casters got buffed to do more damage than RDM as this balances out class difficulty to dps output (personal opinion). It's clear in their initial testing they were content with the dps output from RDM and as such, I don't see how both BLM and SMN doing more dps than them should break fight difficulty if they were buffed to more dps. This is just my personal opinion, but I do enjoy the fact that RDM is very easy and as such, even the average to bad player can perform decent dps on that class.

If we analyze the dps data on both fights, we can identify which classes are performing well at each level of play and which might not be up to standard. You can make your own conclusions about the data: whether its down to class difficulty, skill level of class players, fight design, how "strong" you think the class should be relative to the skill level needed to play optimally, how effective the class is with party buffs, stat distribution on their gear etc

All the data is retrieved from here using standard comps: https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/15...unt&dataset=90

Lets do a statistical breakdown for both bosses (you can check the data yourselves for the individual bosses to the see the differences). I skip the 25th, 75th and 95th break points just to make the division more nicer looking. However, they are good break points to look at regardless.

We have the following (assigning 9 for the worst dps and 1 for the best dps):



Averaging the results, we get the following scores/rankings in terms of DPS for both fights:



Keep in mind this is data from only 2 EX fights and so fight design plays a key part, but even still, the data is useful. There are some "obvious" observations from this however. It is clear, across all levels of play, SMN, MCH and DRG are the 3 worst performing dps in the two fights and SAM, RDM and NIN are the best 3 performing dps. There are a lot of factors to consider as I pointed out earlier. For the lower percentiles, it could come down to class difficulty/design or how badly deaths affect a class etc. For the higher percentiles, it's more about the dps ceiling of the classes coupled with mechanics in the 2 EX fights. If you look at the full breakdown of the dps at each percentile, its interesting to see the dps difference between them (the bottom 3 have very minute differences generally speaking).

For example at the 75th percentile the bottom 3 are: MCH (3067), DRG(3087), SMN(3090) a difference of 23 between 10th and 7th place]. However the difference is more stark as you go up: comparing SMN (3090) (Ranked 7th) to BLM(3190) (Ranked 5th) or even NIN(3275) (Ranked 4th) demonstrates this.

To end, my personal opinion is that I really like how easy RDM plays and I'd much prefer the other 2 casters receive buffs if they were found to be weaker (I'm a caster/SMN main so I'm biased - go figure). It's clear for me that both SMN and BLM are more complex from personal experience on said classes. I've already voiced my concerns over how bad SMN's dps is considering their difficulty. We'll have to wait and see what 4.0.5 has in store. For now, we can just try our classes out in omega and add more data to the pool and keep giving feedback to SE.

[VorpalSpork]

Personally, I think the whole, "my rotation is more complex, so I should do more damage" argument is just ridiculous. Who cares? The jobs should be balanced so they are as close to each other in dps as possible so that no one job is consistently side-lined for content. If you enjoy the complexity, pick that job, if you want something a bit simpler, pick the other. While I wouldn't argue that RDM is equal in complexity to BLM, there are a lot of jobs where opinions differ on rotation difficulty. Are we now supposed to add a percentage damage increase for each button a job has to press that is over some baseline? This all just seems to dissolve into a big epeen contest over who is better because of their super complex rotation. I like that there are options in rotations for different types of people. I don't like to think that we have to factor that in and suddenly make the so-called "easier" jobs suddenly be sub par for content.

[HoLoFoNo]

Stuff

No, but like BRD, classes that are super flexible and don't get punished by mechanics have to have a lower DPS ceiling to compensate. How is this rocket science? BRD has been this was forever now and still it consistently does well not even including what it brings to the party. MCH is very much the same in 3.0, though these classes were bottom on a dummy they did very well in actual fights.

Now lets look at RDM. According to the SSS dummies (Pure solo DPS: doesn't include party contribution or benefits received from a party) RDM currently is 6th on the dummy DPS rankings, fairly modest imo. However, it is over 200 dps over 7th place (DRG) and it is 22 dps behind 4/5th(MNK/NIN) and 37 dps behind 3rd (SMN). Note that these are very general numbers, and do not account for things like stat weights or more optimal rotations (See: NIN 2.4). With how easy to operate and flexible RDM is, it's ceiling is too high considering this doesn't even count embolden (which isn't super op, but it is good.)

I personally think RDM is more deserving of a nerf than SAM if they HAD to nerf a class, but in general, while I understand the potential future balancing issues with throwing buffs around I'd prefer for classes not to get nerfed. Unfortunately people often don't want to think constructively and instead prefer to screech like an autist when someone says something they don't like. This can be seen from both sides: people who hate these 'hip new classes taking over the scene' and people who play these classes not wanting their classes to be brought in line (look how defensive some of these RDM players are getting, chill your tits they aren't going to nerf your class).

[AndrewAlexander]

This has been a big disappointment to me. FF14 was already easy, SB made it nearly brain dead. I havn't had enough time to play to get to EX primals but the dungeons so far have been absolutely mindlessly boring and from what I hear the EX primals arn't much better. I remember bismark and ravana EX kicking ass for a while when they were relevant content. Beyond that you have the utterly incompetent class balance and it just feels like SE gave up.....

Sorry, this game isn't for you. Yoshi designed this game for sustainability and accessibility. Both of those items create SE a consistent ROI. Personally, being able to memorize ALL of the mechanics of dungeons and primals is getting exhausting and is not something the majority of the playerbase wants. They want mechanics that are challenging, but don't require a 20 minute youtube video to be able to do it. We're supposed to leave a battle feeling that it was "fun" and not "glad that its over."

[PrismaticDaybreak]

Typical Utility = low dps argument.

Lowering RDMs DPS output doesn't fix the other classes. It's like making one person poor and asking if the other poor person is better off for it, plus a lot of people are perceiving a massive, gamebreaking amount of utility when really it's just a 6% damage buff for themselves and physical dps a cure and raise that DPS has to be traded for, and the more you take advantage of those two abilities the less sustainability you have since RDM doesn't have a built in mana return. What's really destructive though is randomly going into a thread and calling people pissed off autists when you can't actually determine their tone since it's text.

[Yorumi]

They want mechanics that are challenging

No they don't. But way to get so triggered over a simple opinion.

[HoLoFoNo]

Not reading what I said

Again, you're proving my point by getting defensive. You obviously didn't read what I said as I agreed with the fact that RDM doesn't need a nerf but it is the most deserving class of one if a nerf had to be given out.

I literally only gave one comment about embolden and utility (the dps that RDM is putting out doesn't count it, even if it isn't overpowered it is good) but again as it is clear you didn't read my post what's the point? MY argument was that if RDM is so flexible and easy to use while being very lenient, it should NOT have such a high dps ceiling because then you are gonna see it outpreforming dps with a higher ceiling than it (not a problem in general but RDM is currently outperforming 4 DPS with a higher ceiling than it). Your argument was that difficulty and complexity =/= higher damage which isn't strictly wrong however dps that aren't complex and that are very flexible and easy to adapt to actual combat shouldn't be so strong in a vacuum because as the class is effort efficient, it will transfer more dps from a vacuum to an actual fight.

Case in point BRD. BRD has pretty much been the lowest dps on a dummy from 2.1 however it has, and still does, consistently do well among DPS not including the utility it brings. RDM is pretty much just as lenient when it comes to interacting with mechanics as BRD and yet is like +10% more powerful than it. Make sure to comprehend what is being said before you reply.

[Clarkamite]

I mean, personally I feel like I'm crushing it in every group I'm in. Both Susano and Lakshmi are really great fights and I find myself, as per usual, leading the charge in terms of DPS as a BLM. Only times I ever seem to not be there is when there's a SAM in the party but that's to be expected. Playing RDM they seem pretty fantastic as well, haven't touched SMN at all yet but my pro SMN friend says they're in a pretty decent spot assuming you have a clue what you're doing. If you want to throw some buffs at me and make it so I'm stupid overpowered again as a BLM I'm all for it I guess.

[Seraphi]

you just seem to want pick up a fight huh?

Are you projecting? You are in literally every thread about Red Mages I've looked at, arguing with Red Mages. Don't whine about people getting defensive when you are constantly goading them.

[Vexander]

I think RDM is great where it is. I just feel like BLM should have its former potencies restored. As for Summoner, I've never played it beyond leveling just to have it leveled, so, I would defer to the wisdom of someone else. All that said, I do NOT think Red Mage should be the lowest DPS of the three casters. If its utility is a reason, then I'd say give a bit more utility to BLM and SMN.