LOLSE, We're not wearing 270 STR to hold hate, c'mon now...

[Klongol]

Someone really needs to explain this to me, and it better not be about tanking just needs to worry about a few mechanics, because every time I hear that it makes me think you're just a monkey sitting behind a computer copy pasting the same thing as the other monkies.

I really enjoyed your humblebrag! Thank you for the contribution.

/sigh

[SuperGandhi]

I really enjoyed your humblebrag! Thank you for the contribution.

/sigh

That's all you got? C'mon you can do better than that, you didn't even answer my question.
Because if that's really your only reason for tanks just need to be tanks than you don't belong in the conversation.

[Kinkoz]

That is an attitude that you, and seemingly others, are imposing on yourselves. It's NOT the bare minimum. YOU feel like SE's attempts to control tank DPS is negatively impacting the job. I'm here to tell you that your attitude is the problem, not SE.

Hell, I'm not even knocking trying to increase your damage as a tank. I used to do it in WoW Legion all the time. The bottom line, however, was that I wasn't that worried about dps to succeed. I wasn't SUPPOSED to.

You know, I argued with you in my last reply, but if I take this particular perspective into consideration, I can see the point you're making, although I disagree on a couple of the other stances you've asserted.

First of which, you claim it's a self-imposed problem, but I can tell you from firsthand experience that even hardcore raid tanks expect other tanks to output comparable DPS to an actual DPS role in this game, but again, that seems to be a mindset that's been fostered out of necessity on account of both the subpar performance of the majority of this game's DPS players coupled together with the requirement of a relatively high party-wide minimum DPS in order to clear the Savage content of the last expansion. Then again, I have no measure as to whether or not a party of above-average/excellent DPS and standard Tank and Healer damage numbers/performance lead to consistent clears of content back in previous raid tier, either.

Secondly, it would be all well and good if the dev team is truly attempting to steer us away from this mindset, but, just like they attempt to remove the potential for speedrunning dungeon content, as long as the most effective method exists, people are going to want to pursue it. Optimization is never completely a bad thing.

Third, as I've stated before, given that DPS is already one of the most widely played roles in this game, changing Jobs will only create a shortage of Tanks, which doesn't address the problems people are having with the role whatsoever. Unless the players manage to develop an effective meta involving nothing but DPS and healers in a party comp, the ultimatum you suggest is unsound.

[YitharV2]

... really? I personally never had more fun on the single basis that I did a few more hundred points of DPS. I have fun on the basis of seeing new mechanics, location settings and clearing new content, and progressing the main story. But simply a bit more DPS? Nope. Never.

It's not the numbers. It's using your full kit and having fun. I mean, maybe you have fun just doing 1-2-3 and Flash/Overpower/whatever, but a lot of us don't. MSQ was interesting but after you finish the story and clear content, then what? There are periods of content lulls, which is why gameplay should also be engaging.

You know, despite being a dps main, I don't understand this mindset. I mean, I'm as happy as can be when I score a 40k Midare crit, don't get me wrong, but not enjoying a job on the basis I don't see five digit numbers all the time...? As a tank, I have the most fun when I'm holding hate in dps stance and shrugging off tank busters, not because "OMG LOOKIT MUH FELL CLEAVE GUYS"! I don't even care about the numbers specifically, I just like shrugging off those hits like so much chump change.

About the only complaints I could see being valid would be inability to hold hate or broken gameplay mechanics, but lower numbers? Only way I could see that being bad is if you prefer prioritizing epeen over clearing content.

I'll bite even though. I never once complained about numbers (which is why I'm fine with the recent buff) just about using my full kit and having fun. It's equivalent to only having 1 combo and 1 AoE and nothing else on a DPS. Can do that while watching Netflix.

[PK_THUNER]

the problem is that people think that as tank they have to be bad ass dps , trying to prove something ,but they forget ur alrdy doing something for the party , as in holding aggro and taking big hits , some dps is just a bonus ^^

Im trying to push my class to the limit. If I can do my job hold agro do mechanics and still wear 270s and pump out dmg then why not. If the attack does 25k dmg what does it matter if i have 60k health or 38k. My friend I ran Alexander savage with that mains scholar said he enjoys healing me with 270s better because he can use Excogitation more often letting him utilize his class more. If a vit tank and a str tank did the same exact thing, rotation boss position mechanics, which one do you prefer the one with less dmg or the one with more?

[SuperGandhi]

Im trying to push my class to the limit. If I can do my job hold agro do mechanics and still wear 270s and pump out dmg then why not. If the attack does 25k dmg what does it matter if i have 60k health or 38k. My friend I ran Alexander savage with that mains scholar said he enjoys healing me with 270s better because he can use Excogitation more often letting him utilize his class more. If a vit tank and a str tank did the same exact thing, rotation boss position mechanics, which one do you prefer the one with less dmg or the one with more?

This right here, why no one else seems to understand this breaks my mind so god damn hard.
What's so bad about trying to play your class to the best of it's abilities, AND IN A CO-OP GAME!
You'd think people would be happy their team mates are trying their best, gods know that when I see it I'm happy.

[Klongol]

Secondly, it would be all well and good if the dev team is truly attempting to steer us away from this mindset, but, just like they attempt to remove the potential for speedrunning dungeon content, as long as the most effective method exists, people are going to want to pursue it. Optimization is never completely a bad thing.

Third, as I've stated before, given that DPS is already one of the most widely played roles in this game already, changing Jobs will only create a shortage of Tanks, which doesn't address the problems people are having with the role whatsoever Unless the players manage to develop an effective meta involving nothing but DPS and healers in a party comp, the ultimatum you suggest is unsound.

To address these two specifically, I agree that the way they are going about it is definitely odd. On one hand there are no str accessories Tanks can equip. On the other, most abilities for Tanks 60 to 70 are pure damage skills. It's a mixed message... and I'm not sure that it's enough to really turn the tide. Also if they don't back up this change with more engaging play for tanks at various stages of the game, they do risk losing people who tank.... which plays right into your 3rd point.

To me the message is clear however, and anyone who critically looks at the changes in the context of history can see where they are going.

The ultimatum is probably a bit more inflammatory than it should be, but honestly, it is a way to keep playing and enjoying the game at the very least. If enough tanks leave to play DPS they may make more sweeping changes to turn the tide. Who knows!

[Falar]

You know, I argued with you in my last reply, but if I take this particular perspective into consideration, I can see the point you're making, although I disagree on a couple of the other stances you've asserted.

First of which, you claim it's a self-imposed problem, but I can tell you from firsthand experience that even hardcore raid tanks expect other tanks to output comparable DPS to an actual DPS role in this game, but again, that seems to be a mindset that's been fostered out of necessity on account of both the subpar performance of the majority of this game's DPS players coupled together with the requirement of a relatively high party-wide minimum DPS in order to clear the Savage content of the last expansion. Then again, I have no measure as to whether or not a party of above-average/excellent DPS and standard Tank and Healer damage numbers/performance lead to consistent clears of content back in previous raid tier, either.Secondly, it would be all well and good if the dev team is truly attempting to steer us away from this mindset, but, just like they attempt to remove the potential for speedrunning dungeon content, as long as the most effective method exists, people are going to want to pursue it. Optimization is never completely a bad thing.

Third, as I've stated before, given that DPS is already one of the most widely played roles in this game already, changing Jobs will only create a shortage of Tanks, which doesn't address the problems people are having with the role whatsoever. Unless the players manage to develop an effective meta involving nothing but DPS and healers in a party comp, the ultimatum you suggest is unsound.

I've seen people hint that tanks were nefed in an attempt to curb speedrunning but again like you said, people are still going to find ways to do it.

They create content (relic weapons) that requires 100s or 1000s of dungeon runs so what do they expect is going to happen?

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

I'll bite even though. I never once complained about numbers (which is why I'm fine with the recent buff) just about using my full kit and having fun. It's equivalent to only having 1 combo and 1 AoE and nothing else on a DPS. Can do that while watching Netflix.

You say your not complaining about the numbers, and yet you're very clearly upset about not doing dps comparable to a full dps, going off of your own past posts and the posts here in this thread, so which is it? You can't say you aren't complaining about the numbers, while simultaneously asking SE to make your numbers bigger.

[PK_THUNER]

3000 DPS. Congratulations for being in the top 10 for Warriors worldwide.

Lol I wish. That was on sss. It's pretty impressing seeing ppl do 3k in ex Susano. I think I'm around 25-27k