If AST/WHM is a thing, it's not because WHM is stronger than SCH

[Fernosaur]

WHM just needs a tune up for Lillies and Plenary Indulgence, bc both of those things offer a marginal benefit for the job. You can clear any fight purposefully ignoring them and it changes absolutely nothing about your performance save for maybe the use of Divine Benison for busters. As it stands right now tho, WHM is objectively better than SCH in almost every regard save for the ever elusive party utility. But even then, the removal of Cleric Stance hit SCH very hard. WHM can effortlessly make up for SCH's passive and free healing with their incredibly strong DPS and HPS, not to mention the much better MP sustainability.

I used to be of the idea that SCH was still going to be better bc NoctAST doesn't have any passive healing, and while that is still true, it's much more viable to bring WHM to anything now than it was at any point of Creator, so I stand corrected on that front. ASt+SCH is probably still the most optimal composition with DPS in consideration, but WHM+NoctAST is almost on par with it.

Of course, this doesn't mean the current state of healer meta is healthy. Astrologian seriously needs a massive nerf to their utility because they're literally the only job in the game that is absolutely NEEDED for any party composition, hardcore or casual. They're basically what WAR was through the entirety of HW and that's a terrible, terrible situation.

[Sacerdos]

Its going to come down to if dps phase checks are a wall in progression, and if SCH's Chain Strategem is strong enough that it makes passing those walls easier compared to having a WHM (WHM has higher personal dps vs SCH's raid dps buff).

[Deox]

Its going to come down to if dps phase checks are a wall in progression, and if SCH's Chain Strategem is strong enough that it makes passing those walls easier compared to having a WHM (WHM has higher personal dps vs SCH's raid dps buff).

The thing is atm the difference between whm and sch dps is pretty low. Which I'm pretty sure as whole CS covers

[Kethic]

Glancing at FF logs, White Mage doesn't have as much of a lead as I expected. It's early content, but late July will really shake this out.

[VanEinstein]

My own static has an AST/SCH pairing, and we're not sweating it. It's great to have every advantage, but some folks who worry about that to a great degree still won't even make it. I'm fairly confident they'll start sorting things out during 4.1. That seems like a long time to wait, but it's not like this hasn't happened before, and not just to healers either.

[tikiwiki]

if lb penalty is an issue and you cant coordinate cards well enough then sch/AST will be meta purely for chain stratagem raid dps has always been king in this game and in its current state crit buffs are too important to not take.

[VanEinstein]

Of course, this doesn't mean the current state of healer meta is healthy. Astrologian seriously needs a massive nerf to their utility because they're literally the only job in the game that is absolutely NEEDED for any party composition, hardcore or casual. They're basically what WAR was through the entirety of HW and that's a terrible, terrible situation.

I agree that AST utility is probably in too good a situation by comparison, but nerf it too far and AST will find itself back where it started. They spent the first 2 to 3 fifths of Heavensward warming the bench. It was only after the benefit of their cards was noticeable that they were desired. The real problem here is just overall healer design. Unless they make a decision to homogenize the healers, I think we'll always see some form of disparity. Even then, I don't doubt people will still dig around for reasons to exclude one job or another from their composition.

[dynus]

Big changes are needed to AST. Someone wrote on here that the mistake was making a substitute for WHM/SCH, whichever wasn't in the party, with their Sects and the aspected heals.

Perhaps what needs to be done is change the sects or get rid of them, and tie their aspected heals to a card? Like Aspected Benefic could heal and do 50% effect of whatever card is drawn, while Aspected Helios does 25% effect of the drawn card and heals. Or would that still make them too powerful?

[Fernosaur]

I agree that AST utility is probably in too good a situation by comparison, but nerf it too far and AST will find itself back where it started. They spent the first 2 to 3 fifths of Heavensward warming the bench. It was only after the benefit of their cards was noticeable that they were desired. The real problem here is just overall healer design. Unless they make a decision to homogenize the healers, I think we'll always see some form of disparity. Even then, I don't doubt people will still dig around for reasons to exclude one job or another from their composition.

I both agree and disagree with you, but the reasons why are somewhat complicated.

On release, AST's utility was somewhat undertuned, and their sole weakness throughout all of Heavensward (the lack of oGCD burst healing) was MUCH more evident due to their lower healing potencies. This later problem, coupled with horribly punishing encounter design, was the reason AST simply couldn't handle Gordias. If you add to this the fact that in 3.0-3.17 card management was in a rather pitiful state (the problem of Redrawing the same card, the lengthy CD on Spread, the duration and potency on some cards, like Bole, Arrow and Balance, shorter expansion from Celestial Opposition, etc), you had that formula for a woefully overshadowed class that simply couldn't fill the niche it was supposed to fill by design, which was replacing either of WHM or SCH.

However, all those weaknesses have been completely erased, and AST now poses the opposite problem: its utility was twaked to a point of near-perfection in 3.4, and even though some QoL changes have made card management take a step back, the addition of Lady and Lord have served as a cherry on top of the already amazing cake. Coupled with this, AST's healing potencies are even better than WHM's and SCH's with the sole exception of Cure III in the "spammable healing spell" department, and their oGCD burst healing, once AST's sole weakness, is forever in the past due to the incredible power of Earthly Star.

Right now, AST's utility is too powerful, their healing is too powerful, their shielding is too powerful, and even though their MP efficiency is not as good as WHM, it's not enough of an incentive to not bring it in favor of either of the two healers.

At least two of the three aspects I mentioned above have to be nerfed in order to regain some semblance of balance among healers, though, in my opinion, AST's very design is never going to allow this. I still stand by my idea that Astrologian needs to be redesigned from the ground up in order for it to stop being a hybrid of the other two and regain its own identity centered solely around the utility aspect.

[Raygan]

Hmm it sounds like a brunch of WHM are complaining about AST and insisting their class isn't too strong, like they are afraid of nerfs, or something.

I've healed a lot of trials and 8 man alongside WHM and can easily say that they seemed to have an infinite mana pool. I'd run out darn near instant while barely healing, while the WHM was constantly tossing aoe heals off CD without breaking a sweat. I think some are in hardcore denial that their class is strong.

Scholar, on the other hand... have yet to heal alongside them. Probably because they're the weaker healer. I see WHM everywhere else, though.