Proposal: HQ mat-to-HQ mat conversion of 100%

[Solipse]

The concept of gear being permanently destroyed is a bit of an implausible possibility, however.

Right. This is penalizing people for playing the game - something almost every review and negative association of 14 talks about. The fatigue system in general penalizes you increasingly more the more you play. For players to feel proud about items they possess, they can't be 'throw away' items that you don't care if they don't last a week. If nothing lasts more than a week, then there is little to no reason to spend more than the minimal effort on acquiring those items.

How many ways can things like gear leave the economy, anyway?

Lots. Some off the top of my head:

1) The original idea I pitched in the other thread with combining items.
2) A system where you can use NQ items to enhance, in some way, another item.
3) Some system that allows you to create new items from combinations of different items (the example I used before was a culinarian combining a bowl of soup, a salad and a sandwich).
4) Some kind of enchanting system similar to WoW's (but hopefully much more intricate and involved).
5) Some kind of sacrifice system, even if it's only for a certain class: ie a monk type class that sacrifices items to their god to regenerate some form of special mana/tp to power certain abilities.
6) Some rank of incapacitating attacks, much more powerful than any of the current incapacitates, that is powered by items the player's current class can use, especially weapons (ie, a gladiator can perform some crazy technique to incap something by breaking a sword during an attack).
7) Donating items to NPC for some kind of boon, such as guardian's favor of a power and length in line with the value of the item donated.
8) Create raidable moghouses that are protected by guards that you can arm with equipment to defend your loot (this kind of system would require world PVP, though, so unlikely).
9) Perhaps the simplest, and solves two problems with one implementation - allow the rank of equipment sacrificed to increase the chance of getting marks from the next local leve you hand by some %.

These are just off the top of my head. Really, there is no logical limit for the number of ways gear can leave the system, essentially, think of some buff or boon that players could use or currently need. If you can find a way to give that boon or buff by sacrificing equipment, then congrats, you've found a feasible solution.

[Rentahamster]

Hmm, interesting.

In games like Final Fantasy Tactics, weapons were turned into consumables via the Samurai skill that breaks swords, and the Ninja's "Throw" attack.

[Kimahri]

Holy crap, there's an ignore list. You are my hero.

"I can be your hero, Baby! I can kiss away the pain. You can take.....My breath away!"

[origamikitsune]

Right. This is penalizing people for playing the game - something almost every review and negative association of 14 talks about. The fatigue system in general penalizes you increasingly more the more you play. For players to feel proud about items they possess, they can't be 'throw away' items that you don't care if they don't last a week. If nothing lasts more than a week, then there is little to no reason to spend more than the minimal effort on acquiring those items.



Lots. Some off the top of my head:

1) The original idea I pitched in the other thread with combining items.
2) A system where you can use NQ items to enhance, in some way, another item.
3) Some system that allows you to create new items from combinations of different items (the example I used before was a culinarian combining a bowl of soup, a salad and a sandwich).
4) Some kind of enchanting system similar to WoW's (but hopefully much more intricate and involved).
5) Some kind of sacrifice system, even if it's only for a certain class: ie a monk type class that sacrifices items to their god to regenerate some form of special mana/tp to power certain abilities.
6) Some rank of incapacitating attacks, much more powerful than any of the current incapacitates, that is powered by items the player's current class can use, especially weapons (ie, a gladiator can perform some crazy technique to incap something by breaking a sword during an attack).
7) Donating items to NPC for some kind of boon, such as guardian's favor of a power and length in line with the value of the item donated.
8) Create raidable moghouses that are protected by guards that you can arm with equipment to defend your loot (this kind of system would require world PVP, though, so unlikely).
9) Perhaps the simplest, and solves two problems with one implementation - allow the rank of equipment sacrificed to increase the chance of getting marks from the next local leve you hand by some %.

These are just off the top of my head. Really, there is no logical limit for the number of ways gear can leave the system, essentially, think of some buff or boon that players could use or currently need. If you can find a way to give that boon or buff by sacrificing equipment, then congrats, you've found a feasible solution.

A desynth system would help, if there were less items generated from the desynth than were used to make the item originally.

[Solipse]

A desynth system would help, if there were less items generated from the desynth than were used to make the item originally.

I'm curious how you feel that would help.

Logically, that would decrease the number of NQ and +1 items and greatly increase the number of +3 items. I think because the materials for the synths are not removed, only the end result, you can't really consider the item itself as leaving the economy, only the action of synthing it. Because you could desynth and resynth endlessly, you would therefore end up with huge stockpiles of +2 and +3 weapons instead of huge stockpiles of NQ and +1 ...

[Peregrine]

I put off actively leveling gathering jobs because I don't need them right now. My LS gives me so many mats, its ridiculous. This. Does. Not. Mean. I. Am. Using. Them. I find it offensive that you suggest as much. I am lucky enough to...

It doesn't matter what OTHER jobs you have. What matters is that an R50 is equal to an R50 of the same job. HOW they play is up to them.

The story of every first-generation crafter ever. That's how you see yourself in your head, but that's sadly not how gathering works. When I gather, 75% of the items are materials that I use myself. 15% no one wants. 10% someone else wants. That's the reality of mining, so if you got to BS, GS, or ARM on someone else's ores, you leeched off them or they just didn't care because it was october and their inventory was a mess. That was no exchange of equal product. How's a friend helping you out of your silver earring and ring phase in goldsmithing, by giving you ALL of their silver ores? What are you giving them? Not gems. You're not a miner. Wind shards? I highly doubt it. Maybe some paltry fire shards then. What you probably gave them is your divine might as a crafter. A polished iron pickaxe. There. You're equals now! How about your iron phase in blacksmithing, did they give you 2500 iron ores? What, exactly, did you give them in return for that? A bladed lantern shield they could afford by selling a tenth of those ores? THANKS!

Botany may be different. Alch, carp, and weaver don't all use the same materials, so I can see a shell powwow working somewhat. Less now with the item-targetting updates.

If you leeched silver ores off a miner who was a blacksmith, you killed their R45-50 progress. Just flat-out took it from them.
If you leeched iron ores off a miner who was an armorer, you killed their R30-50 progress.
If you leeched iron ores off a blacksmith, they can't even be called a blacksmith really.
If you leeched gold products off a miner who was anything, they should own 80% of the profits that you ever land until you buy their share in you back out. The saddest town crafter is a R50 goldsmith with no miner. Or lucky if they got there on silver needles.

You can get iron off a miner who'se a goldsmith, but I still think that's a leech. That poor soul could use the money.

And as far as all R50s being equal, you're going to have to make that argument before we had a handful of first-gen town crafters try to posture with their pokemon ball collections. Hand of the Gods, I choose you to separate me from the herd of other crafters!

Desynthesis and product destruction is something you patch a broken system with. It's giving up outdated content as worthless and arguing that there's enough existing content to keep the game interesting. The game is way too young for "we don't really care any more" fail like that.

They need to cut production. They can cut production by giving town crafters absolutely no shot at multimillions with NQ product. Guarantee the number of crab bows drops by 90% if NQ products can't make HQ2 and 3 bows and if the only good a megalocrab shell NQ was for...is crab oil. Then you may think there will be a lot of NQ raw materials on the maket, but that's not how final products work. The only spam to final product is the final product. All of the materials probably wouldn't exist if you didn't insist on them en masse. Look at the ingredients for crab bows. Which of those mats would be in excess if carps didn't mass-produce crab bows? None.

They can try to cut production on the gathering side, but it won't help. Prices will just go up because most of you all don't gather. You mass-consume because that's how you compete, not because mass production exists inherently. You create those markets of mass production where none existed. Mass production is there for mass grinding on levels. Ornamental iron hammer heads that you know are going in the trash. Not crab bows that you spammed and now want them to be worth more than they can possibly ever be.

Desynth and thousandbows are simply poor ideas. They only encourage the problem, which is too many crafters grinding too many final products. Take their incentive to mass produce final products away. Any other solution only buys you time. It won't buy you a solution.

[origamikitsune]

Is it so hard for you to believe that some people like helping each other out... for the sake of helping each other out? Or because it is just a nice thing to do? Because we're friends, and we find enjoyment out of making a social event for trading and swapping items? As weaver, especially at my level, I use cotton like no tomorrow. But that doesn't keep me from giving out stack after stack of bolls, thread, and cloth to people in my LS who can use them. And if I have shards or crystals, yes, I do give them away. Fire shards, wind shard, lightning shards. It doesn't matter. I enjoy fishing quite a bit, so I have a decent supply usually. When all they want are repairs, that is what I give them. Sometimes they give me ore to skill up on, in exchange for the nuggets or ingots that I output. It saves them time, and I get SP. When all they want is to be nice, and take satisfaction in helping someone for the sake of helping someone, that is what they get. Each person is different.

I for one quite enjoy playing in a game with so much camaraderie. Its *gasp* FUN. What a shocking concept. And that's the point. The game is supposed to be fun. Some people get their fun in a different way. That doesn't make them any less of a player. It just makes them a different player.

As for dsynthing, I make no claims to it being THE solution, or the ONLY solution to the fact that finished products do not leave the market. But the ability to make parts or finished items into basic mats might help, especially if they can be used for grinding.

I do happen to agree with you one point however. The best solution presented so far, for the immediate situation, is to work out the kinks in the HQ system - particularly by limiting the HQ output to HQ mats, and by reducing the randomness of HQing at low quality.

This does a couple things:
It enforces the importance of gatherers, which I believe DOES need to be improved. It also prevents a glut in the market for HQ items which some people might argue hasn't happened yet, but it will happen over time if it hasn't already.

But this does not prevent a glut in the market for NQ items. Which, granted, might not be a bad thing because it makes NQ items readily available to casual players. SE has made it pretty clear that they want casual players to feel the game is accessible and playable to them, and keeping prices low on NQ items, I imagine, would be preferable (especially since the options for gear are so limited - in some cases there is only ONE item of a given type for a particular level of a given job).

So yeah.

[Rentahamster]

That's the reality of mining, so if you got to BS, GS, or ARM on someone else's ores, you leeched off them or they just didn't care because it was october and their inventory was a mess. That was no exchange of equal product. How's a friend helping you out of your silver earring and ring phase in goldsmithing, by giving you ALL of their silver ores? What are you giving them? Not gems. You're not a miner. Wind shards? I highly doubt it. Maybe some paltry fire shards then. What you probably gave them is your divine might as a crafter. A polished iron pickaxe. There. You're equals now! How about your iron phase in blacksmithing, did they give you 2500 iron ores? What, exactly, did you give them in return for that? A bladed lantern shield they could afford by selling a tenth of those ores? THANKS!

Are you considering the possibility that a lot of people don't care about their exchanges being monetarily equivalent? That maybe some people want to give stuff away to their friends because they are...friends?

I give away shards and mats to my friends all the time. Even in the early days when shards were worth a lot more than they are now. I could have over 50 million gil now if I had just kept everything to myself, but I don't care. I'm not the only one who feels this way.

[Rentahamster]

Right. This is penalizing people for playing the game - something almost every review and negative association of 14 talks about. The fatigue system in general penalizes you increasingly more the more you play. For players to feel proud about items they possess, they can't be 'throw away' items that you don't care if they don't last a week. If nothing lasts more than a week, then there is little to no reason to spend more than the minimal effort on acquiring those items.

I was just reading this article, and that made me think about the issue of items not leaving the economy.

http://funingames.net/2011/01/the-economy-of-wow/

Everything in EVE is a consumable. Missiles and Ammo are spent in the usual manner of course, but ships and all their modules can be destroyed.
You are more or less able to expect a constant demand for any item you can imagine because once they’re produced and enter the economy; they’re not there forever as in the case of BoE items in WoW where you can only ever sell one of a given type per character. They can be destroyed and end up in need of replacing as a result.

What if the introduction of airships was turned into an EVE-like environment where PVP is allowed and airships can be freely built and destroyed? You'd have good ol' carebear (not that that's a bad thing, I prefer the overworld be non-PVP) on land, and free-for-alls in the sky. Crafters could generate ammo and make repairs to airships in real time. The economy for airship parts would be crazy.

Of course, this wouldn't really fix any of the problems that we currently have, but it's nice to dream.

[Golophei]

Just 2 quick obvious questions to this proposal.

1.Why would anyone bother to craft and sell any NQ items for profit if HQ materials guaranteed 100% HQ items?(I guess only for people who whored the rank up andover stock)

2. Wouldn't It completely destroy the NQ market?