REQUEST: Please change PVP duty incentive

[RyuujinZERO]

Let's try and find some common ground. Can we agree with the following:

1. most people are doing Frontline for experience right now
2. You get the same experience whether you win or lose

Correct.

[Plus several more characters]

[Dizhonor]

No need to punish people who are actually trying and attempting to PVP. Just give us better reporting and actually ban afkers, feeders, etc so the matches aren't ruined for everyone.

I'm not suggesting that we PUNISH anyone. I'm asking that the rewards are tied to the results. As it stands, you're being REWARDED for losing matches. Scaling experience to place isn't a punishment. It's making sense of the reward system.

[Dizhonor]

Correct.

Thank you. Can we agree with the further points?

1. most people are doing Frontline for experience right now
2. You get the same experience whether you win or lose
3. "winning" and "losing" is motivated by the rewards
4. the point to PVP matches is to win
5. but (2) you get the same reward whether you win or lose
6. so (2) renders (3.) invalid
7. therefore (2.) renders (4.) invalid

[KisaiTenshi]

Thank you. Can we agree with the further points?

1. most people are doing Frontline for experience right now
2. You get the same experience whether you win or lose
3. "winning" and "losing" is motivated by the rewards
4. the point to PVP matches is to win
5. but (2) you get the same reward whether you win or lose
6. so (2) renders (3.) invalid
7. therefore (2.) renders (4.) invalid

It probably should be scaled to participation. If you have nothing but zeros you should get zero.

[Dizhonor]

It probably should be scaled to participation. If you have nothing but zeros you should get zero.

That's much more than what I'm suggesting. But maybe your suggestion is better? I think it would invite very nuanced debates about what sort of participation matters, and how much it matters.. For example, in matches which require breaking crystals / ice, should damage to crystals / ice count for more points than damage to players? You could argue that killing players prevents them from damaging crystals / ice, and therefore counts as much as your own damage to crystals / ice.

[Dizhonor]

I've personally interacted with a bunch of people who previously barely or never touched PVP at all, but are trying it out now because of the new incentives. While they may be new and not know the rules, they have all tried to do the best they can in the match and play the objectives. The bad apples who afk bot for EXP are a very tiny minority, and it's not worth getting rid of the new incentives just to weed them out.

So it makes sense to you to give the same experience rewards to 1st place and 3rd place? Okay. Do you also think that we should give out gold medals at the Olympics for 1st, 2nd and 3rd place? Or how about giving a Superbowl trophy to all of the teams, even if they don't even make it to the superbowl?

SMH

[loreleidiangelo]

I'm not suggesting that we PUNISH anyone. I'm asking that the rewards are tied to the results. As it stands, you're being REWARDED for losing matches. Scaling experience to place isn't a punishment. It's making sense of the reward system.

You are indirectly suggesting punishment, though. You're suggesting punishment for whichever team happens to get the highest number of bots or afkers, and I'm suggesting we punish the afkers and feeders instead, not everyone who has the misfortune of being on their team. My solution is vastly superior, albeit more labor-intensive on the part of the company (which should be no justification on anyone's part IMO).

[Dizhonor]

You are indirectly suggesting punishment, though. You're suggesting punishment for whichever team happens to get the highest number of bots or afkers, and I'm suggesting we punish the afkers and feeders instead, not everyone who has the misfortune of being on their team. My solution is vastly superior, albeit more labor-intensive on the part of the company (which should be no justification on anyone's part IMO).

Sorry, but that's a false equivocation. Unless you think that giving someone a BRONZE medal at the Olympics is a punishment for winning third place? It's a reward that's fitting to the result. Gold for 1st, Silver for 2nd, and Bronze for 3rd. That's exactly what I'm suggesting here. Experience fitting to the result.

[RyuujinZERO]

Thank you. Can we agree with the further points?

1. most people are doing Frontline for experience right now
2. You get the same experience whether you win or lose
3. "winning" and "losing" is motivated by the rewards
4. the point to PVP matches is to win
5. but (2) you get the same reward whether you win or lose
6. so (2) renders (3.) invalid
7. therefore (2.) renders (4.) invalid

This rather pessimistically assumes that people only give the minimum effort needed to achieve a reward. The reward might be their main motivator to step through the door, but once inside this model presumes they will not participate any further. The very low rate of AFK'rs suggests this is not actually true and that human behavior is far more complex "than pull lever, receive food.".

1 and 2 presently are the main draw for players coming to PvP. Indeed these rewards are so great they are attracting players who would otherwise shun PvP because they hate hurting/being hurt by other human beings (In this context, denying or being denied some tangible reward), but thanks to 5 - it doesn't matter who wins; they are actually willing to participate because the match is 'friendly' in nature. Change up those rules and those players are going to walk out.

Now, the hardcore PvP crowd will probably laud that outcome; no more 'newbies' and 'carebears' clogging up their arena, but as a whole this seems like it'd hurt far more people than would stand to benefit from it, or be punished by it.

[NovaLevossida]

There's no need to nerf the experience given how horrid DPS queue times are and how they haven't addressed that issue. If anything, put a bonus above what we get now for 2nd and 1st place. Nerfing exp for the people who are queuing into it because they have 40 minute waits for dungeons is the wrong way to go.