But it's a sword.

[Duelle]

And I could make it so that the Black Mage doesn't need to cast Blizzard or remove the Summoner's pets and make up new mechanics for them and suddenly their completely different!

The difference is that the Blizzard line of spells is tied to resource recovery, and further tied to Enochian back in HW. Unlike the melee combo RDM has, Blizzard and Umbral Ice are a core part of how BLM plays. Without it you'd have to regulate the use of damage spells somehow (probably giving each spell a cooldown, but that would break one of the devs' stated design rules for abilities), not to mention design the job around having finite mana instead of DPS that sort of sine waves.

And as I've said in the SMN threads, the devs need to pick either pets, or trances, and then rebuild the job for whichever direction they picked.

PS: Mystic Knight cannot heal, lacks ranged options, and concept-wise offers no utility.

[RyouAkizuki]

And as I've said in the SMN threads, the devs need to pick either pets, or trances, and then rebuild the job for whichever direction they picked.

Glad to see your thoughts on Summoner are just as wrong as your thoughts on Red Mage.

Having both pets and trances fulfills both methods that Summoning has been interpreted as throughout the series, as such both fit fine within the job.

PS: Mystic Knight cannot heal, lacks ranged options, and concept-wise offers no utility.

You clearly have not played any game that has Mystic Knight in it (it is a rare job, but hey FFXIV added a job used by one character in one game before!). Mystic Knight does in fact have utility in two of the games it appears in, FFV (Where it premeired) and Bravely Default. Both games let you apply Status Magic to the attack. And, in fact, in FFV was the most reliable method of inflicting said statuses.

Edit: And hahahahah holy crap at your sig.

The sad thing is that FFXIV turned RDM into a turret

Calling Red Mage a turret in a game that has Black Mage in it is hilarious. Red Mage is, in fact, the most mobile spellcasting job in the game. Since, you know, it only actually has a cast time every other GCD.

It's supposed to combine sword and magic into something more

Not really, no.

Red Mage in its conception was literally the Bard from Dungeons and Dragons with the serial numbers filed off. A jack of all trades job that could use a lot of different kinds of magic as well as basic melee competence. It's always been designed primarily as a spell-caster. It's melee abilities exist to balance out the fact that it has lower MP and power than the specialist mage jobs, allowing it to contribute to the party without using resources.

not spend the bulk of gameplay spamming spells

Considering that in any content that seriously mattered this is exactly what a Red Mage does and, in later FF games their signaiture ability is literally the power to throw out even more spells I'd say that yes, yes it does.

nd jump into melee for only 3 GCDs before scurrying back to the back line like good little casters.

This is literally more melee then I have had any Red Mage I've used done in any previous Final Fantasy game.

[Duelle]

Having both pets and trances fulfills both methods that Summoning has been interpreted as throughout the series, as such both fit fine within the job.

Except that at this point pets have been abandoned in favor of trances. You're leaving a system that is obsolete in terms of gameplay because...reasons?

You clearly have not played any game that has Mystic Knight in it (it is a rare job, but hey FFXIV added a job used by one character in one game before!). Mystic Knight does in fact have utility in two of the games it appears in, FFV (Where it premeired) and Bravely Default. Both games let you apply Status Magic to the attack. And, in fact, in FFV was the most reliable method of inflicting said statuses.

By casting spells through swords (in V, as I never played Bravely Default). If you limited RDM to sword-casting, removed all ranged options and removed white magic as a whole, then you can start comparing it to Mystic Knight.

Calling Red Mage a turret in a game that has Black Mage in it is hilarious. Red Mage is, in fact, the most mobile spellcasting job in the game.

As I've said elsewhere, having an easier time dodging telegraphs does not negate the fact that you're a turret. The same was true for BRD when Wanderer's Minuet turned the job into Bow Mage.

Not really, no.

I'll point to Enspells and the logical conclusion that idea reaches. I can list some mechanics that tie both melee and magic to help illustrate where that idea leads, if you'd like.

A jack of all trades job that could use a lot of different kinds of magic as well as basic melee competence.

And we know how successful classes like that are in trinity MMOs (read: they're not).

It's always been designed primarily as a spell-caster. It's melee abilities exist to balance out the fact that it has lower MP and power than the specialist mage jobs, allowing it to contribute to the party without using resources.

Again, console FF limitations. By design the facets of the job were segregated because turn-based combat could do nothing to tie them together in a way to help the job stand out. Also why the player ends up choosing to use the job in a way they get the most bang for their buck (read: casting spells).

Moving past your use of the "this is how it was in older FFs" argument, I'm going to have to ask if you have played MMOs that had hybrid classes before. Not the ones with bullshit like "this class is a hybrid but you're a mezzer/healer/buffbot at endgame", but classes with actual mechanics that tied different aspects of the class together. Because that's what I expected out of RDM, instead of what we got.

[RyouAkizuki]

Except that at this point pets have been abandoned in favor of trances. You're leaving a system that is obsolete in terms of gameplay because...reasons?

The Summoner's Level 70 ability is literally called "Summon Bahamut" in which you call out a Bahamut pet.

By casting spells through swords (in V, as I never played Bravely Default). If you limited RDM to sword-casting, removed all ranged options and removed white magic as a whole, then you can start comparing it to Mystic Knight.

Mystic Knight also casts White Magic. And ranged options are in no way tied to being able to cast magic.

As I've said elsewhere, having an easier time dodging telegraphs does not negate the fact that you're a turret. The same was true for BRD when Wanderer's Minuet turned the job into Bow Mage.

And just because you use words incorrectly doesn't mean your point has any meaning.

Red Mage is not a turret, neither was Bard, just because you're wrongly saying they are doesn't make reality agree with you.

I'll point to Enspells and the logical conclusion that idea reaches. I can list some mechanics that tie both melee and magic to help illustrate where that idea leads, if you'd like.

FFXI is the only Final Fantasy game to give Red Mage "En-spell." This is, again, the Job in one game getting the ability from a different job (Mystic Knight). It is not a core part of the Job's identity.

Again, console FF limitations. By design the facets of the job were segregated because turn-based combat could do nothing to tie them together in a way to help the job stand out. Also why the player ends up choosing to use the job in a way they get the most bang for their buck (read: casting spells).

Final Fantasy XII is not turn based. It has Red Mage in it. You're still better off just casting spell most of the time unless you have, like, no MP. In fact, the best weapon for it was the Zeus Mace, because it boosted their unique Darkness elemental spells.

It's designs have nothing to do with design limiations because the fact that jobs like the Mystic Knight exist in turn based games mean that they do have methods of making Melee/Magic hyrbids in turn based games. It's a deliberate choice to make Red Mage primarily a mage.

Moving past your use of the "this is how it was in older FFs" argument, I'm going to have to ask if you have played MMOs that had hybrid classes before. Not the ones with bullshit like "this class is a hybrid but you're a mezzer/healer/buffbot at endgame", but classes with actual mechanics that tied different aspects of the class together. Because that's what I expected out of RDM, instead of what we got.

Except "How it was done in older FFs" absolutely DOES matter because Final Fantasy XIV is a Final Fantasy game.

And no, I haven't played any MMOs other than FFXIV, so I don't give a crap about them. FFXIV is a Final Fantasy game, so it will follow the fomrulas established in the series. FFXIV uses the "Trinity" format and every Job has to thus be interpreted in that format. One could have fit Red Mage into any of the three roles with thought, but the developers chose DPS. Thus they use the balance meter to build up to strong melee burst as a way to interpret it using both schools of magic and having melee attacks.

[Duelle]

The Summoner's Level 70 ability is literally called "Summon Bahamut" in which you call out a Bahamut pet.

A temporary pet, which as a class-encompassing system is not something I would be opposed to. Egis are not far from being dead weight from a mechanics perspective, and at this point I'd suggest dropping egi's and focusing on trances. Temp summons can be treated as bonuses for certain actions.

Mystic Knight also casts White Magic. And ranged options are in no way tied to being able to cast magic.

Magic in general often grants the benefit of attacking from range. And the white magic thing must have been a later addition, because back when that job was called Sorcerer it really was just Magic Sword => select spell => swing weapon with particle effect. Mind you that FFV is my point of reference there.

Red Mage is not a turret, neither was Bard, just because you're wrongly saying they are doesn't make reality agree with you.

I wasn't the only one who felt that way about BRD. Feedback did get the devs to give the job back its mobility, after all.

FFXI is the only Final Fantasy game to give Red Mage "En-spell." This is, again, the Job in one game getting the ability from a different job (Mystic Knight). It is not a core part of the Job's identity.

FFXI is also the first FF MMO. Which ties ties to my point of MMO combat (live combat, really) opening the door for things you couldn't do with the console FFs.

Final Fantasy XII is not turn based. It has Red Mage in it.

I started playing the original release, but never got past the first 2 hours because I found the english voice acting atrocious, so I don't know much about XII.

It's designs have nothing to do with design limitations because the fact that jobs like the Mystic Knight exist in turn based games mean that they do have methods of making Melee/Magic hybrids in turn based games.

I disagree. Hitting Attack does nothing for the next magic spell used in any of the turn-based RPGs I've played. Casting a spell has no effect on the Attack command. There's also the lack of support for the type of procs required (hitting Attack has an X% chance to do something to the next Black or White magic spell) nor stacking mechanics (Attack generates a stack that does something to your spells). No combo systems, either.

Except "How it was done in older FFs" absolutely DOES matter because Final Fantasy XIV is a Final Fantasy game.

It does matter, but is not the absolute boundary for what you can do with class design. There's elements and aesthetics that can carry over genres, but not everything will. And this is something I've been arguing since people started to complain that SMN had DoTs back when ARR launched.

And no, I haven't played any MMOs other than FFXIV, so I don't give a crap about them.

Then you're willingly limiting your critical spectrum (and explains why what I say is making no sense to you). Which not even the developers of this game are doing, as Yoshida himself has said they look at the competition for inspiration for systems and gameplay; hell, pre-SB PLD was basically a WoW prot warrior with some added knickknacks, Pre-HW BLM was for all intents a WoW fire mage with infinite MP, SMN was built on the foundation of WoW's warlocks, and so on. Even the recent stuff like the WHM Confession+Plenary Indulgence mechanic (an adaptation of the WoW Disc Priest's Atonement system) and the BRD song system (which has a decent chunk of the chant system from Pillars of Eternity; yes, I know that Pillars is a CRPG) fall into this.

They've drawn plenty of systems from the competition, believe it or not.

[Yorumi]

I disagree. Hitting Attack does nothing for the next magic spell used in any of the turn-based RPGs I've played. Casting a spell has no effect on the Attack command. There's also the lack of support for the type of procs required (hitting Attack has an X% chance to do something to the next Black or White magic spell) nor stacking mechanics (Attack generates a stack that does something to your spells). No combo systems, either.

This is your problem, either you don't understand what words mean, or you're deliberately engaging in a bait and switch. You have repeatedly said it can't be done, not that you have not seen it done, that it can't. Well I hate to you but you not seeing something doesn't mean it can't be done. But you have a bigger problem, what your suggesting has been done and is has been done in FF. Mystic knight. In ff5 mystic knight would cast(using magic) a sword enchantment. That would make the attack command discharge the spell.

Furthermore you can make skills create stacks in a turn based system, play etrian odyssey. You can split a turn up into multiple actions. Look at table top games, in pathfinder for example you can swift cast a touch spell which is discharged to the target on successful attack in the same round(spells enhancing melee). Classes like swashbuckler build stacks of a resource on crits that they can spend on special skills. So once again it has been demonstrated that you have not the slightest clue what you're talking about, nor a breadth of experience with turn based systems.