But it's a sword.

[RyouAkizuki]

I would like to think that I understand what XIV is - my argument would be that if RDM doesn't fit XIV, then it shouldn't be in XIV. Changing fundamental aspects of the job just to squash it in to XIV's restrictive environment isn't doing RDM any favours.

It doesn't change how the Red Mage is fundamentally.

Red Mage's melee attacks aren't just tacked on, that's like saying that Dreadwyrm Trance is tacked on to Summoner. The melee attacks are Red Mage's burst phase, where the resources you build up while doing your rotation are executed in a big explosion of damage. Frankly I've done more melee as a Red Mage than I ever did when using on in FFV, FFTA, FFXII, and Bravely Default.

[Rawrz]

Yeah, the current RDM is nothing short of a mockery. Hell, I'm pretty sure WHM and MNK got more love than RDM... the dev team spent too much time on "How can we make it flashy" and completely forgot to make it FUN.

Why you hate everything i find awesome D:< Thunda_Cow

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

Why you hate everything i find awesome D:< Thunda_Cow

RDM is healer dps levels of simple. :c I don't like simple. RDM used to be my favorite job until this incarnation reared its head.

[MidnightTundra]

You don't like simple? You don't even raid.

Everything you do in this game is simple.

[Duelle]

Red Mage's melee attacks aren't just tacked on, that's like saying that Dreadwyrm Trance is tacked on to Summoner.

Mechanically-speaking, the melee is tacked on. When I can replace the Enhanced Redoublement combo with Verflare (places a debuff on you called Oversaturation: Black that prevents the use of Verthunder and Verfire) => Verholy (places a debuff on you called Oversaturation: White that prevents the use of Vercure, Veraero and Verstone) => Ultima (can only be used under the effect of Oversaturation: Black and Oversaturation: White), that means the melee is not really integral to the gameplay since it's basically a mana dump. The fact the melee skills when not 80/80 serve no purpose also points to this. It's almost like they designed the spell system, then said "shit, don't they also use swords or something?".

[RyouAkizuki]

Mechanically-speaking, the melee is tacked on. When I can replace the Enhanced Redoublement combo with Verflare (places a debuff on you called Oversaturation: Black that prevents the use of Verthunder and Verfire) => Verholy (places a debuff on you called Oversaturation: White that prevents the use of Vercure, Veraero and Verstone) => Ultima (can only be used under the effect of Oversaturation: Black and Oversaturation: White), that means the melee is not really integral to the gameplay since it's basically a mana dump. The fact the melee skills when not 80/80 serve no purpose also points to this. It's almost like they designed the spell system, then said "shit, don't they also use swords or something?".

And I could make it so that the Black Mage doesn't need to cast Blizzard or remove the Summoner's pets and make up new mechanics for them and suddenly their completely different!

Or we can look at how the Job is actually designed in the real world instead of your fantasy of a Mystic Knight, see it's built around building a resource by spellcasting to power up melee attacks, and see that it's clearly not tacked on.

[Duelle]

And I could make it so that the Black Mage doesn't need to cast Blizzard or remove the Summoner's pets and make up new mechanics for them and suddenly their completely different!

The difference is that the Blizzard line of spells is tied to resource recovery, and further tied to Enochian back in HW. Unlike the melee combo RDM has, Blizzard and Umbral Ice are a core part of how BLM plays. Without it you'd have to regulate the use of damage spells somehow (probably giving each spell a cooldown, but that would break one of the devs' stated design rules for abilities), not to mention design the job around having finite mana instead of DPS that sort of sine waves.

And as I've said in the SMN threads, the devs need to pick either pets, or trances, and then rebuild the job for whichever direction they picked.

PS: Mystic Knight cannot heal, lacks ranged options, and concept-wise offers no utility.

[RyouAkizuki]

And as I've said in the SMN threads, the devs need to pick either pets, or trances, and then rebuild the job for whichever direction they picked.

Glad to see your thoughts on Summoner are just as wrong as your thoughts on Red Mage.

Having both pets and trances fulfills both methods that Summoning has been interpreted as throughout the series, as such both fit fine within the job.

PS: Mystic Knight cannot heal, lacks ranged options, and concept-wise offers no utility.

You clearly have not played any game that has Mystic Knight in it (it is a rare job, but hey FFXIV added a job used by one character in one game before!). Mystic Knight does in fact have utility in two of the games it appears in, FFV (Where it premeired) and Bravely Default. Both games let you apply Status Magic to the attack. And, in fact, in FFV was the most reliable method of inflicting said statuses.

Edit: And hahahahah holy crap at your sig.

The sad thing is that FFXIV turned RDM into a turret

Calling Red Mage a turret in a game that has Black Mage in it is hilarious. Red Mage is, in fact, the most mobile spellcasting job in the game. Since, you know, it only actually has a cast time every other GCD.

It's supposed to combine sword and magic into something more

Not really, no.

Red Mage in its conception was literally the Bard from Dungeons and Dragons with the serial numbers filed off. A jack of all trades job that could use a lot of different kinds of magic as well as basic melee competence. It's always been designed primarily as a spell-caster. It's melee abilities exist to balance out the fact that it has lower MP and power than the specialist mage jobs, allowing it to contribute to the party without using resources.

not spend the bulk of gameplay spamming spells

Considering that in any content that seriously mattered this is exactly what a Red Mage does and, in later FF games their signaiture ability is literally the power to throw out even more spells I'd say that yes, yes it does.

nd jump into melee for only 3 GCDs before scurrying back to the back line like good little casters.

This is literally more melee then I have had any Red Mage I've used done in any previous Final Fantasy game.

[Duelle]

Having both pets and trances fulfills both methods that Summoning has been interpreted as throughout the series, as such both fit fine within the job.

Except that at this point pets have been abandoned in favor of trances. You're leaving a system that is obsolete in terms of gameplay because...reasons?

You clearly have not played any game that has Mystic Knight in it (it is a rare job, but hey FFXIV added a job used by one character in one game before!). Mystic Knight does in fact have utility in two of the games it appears in, FFV (Where it premeired) and Bravely Default. Both games let you apply Status Magic to the attack. And, in fact, in FFV was the most reliable method of inflicting said statuses.

By casting spells through swords (in V, as I never played Bravely Default). If you limited RDM to sword-casting, removed all ranged options and removed white magic as a whole, then you can start comparing it to Mystic Knight.

Calling Red Mage a turret in a game that has Black Mage in it is hilarious. Red Mage is, in fact, the most mobile spellcasting job in the game.

As I've said elsewhere, having an easier time dodging telegraphs does not negate the fact that you're a turret. The same was true for BRD when Wanderer's Minuet turned the job into Bow Mage.

Not really, no.

I'll point to Enspells and the logical conclusion that idea reaches. I can list some mechanics that tie both melee and magic to help illustrate where that idea leads, if you'd like.

A jack of all trades job that could use a lot of different kinds of magic as well as basic melee competence.

And we know how successful classes like that are in trinity MMOs (read: they're not).

It's always been designed primarily as a spell-caster. It's melee abilities exist to balance out the fact that it has lower MP and power than the specialist mage jobs, allowing it to contribute to the party without using resources.

Again, console FF limitations. By design the facets of the job were segregated because turn-based combat could do nothing to tie them together in a way to help the job stand out. Also why the player ends up choosing to use the job in a way they get the most bang for their buck (read: casting spells).

Moving past your use of the "this is how it was in older FFs" argument, I'm going to have to ask if you have played MMOs that had hybrid classes before. Not the ones with bullshit like "this class is a hybrid but you're a mezzer/healer/buffbot at endgame", but classes with actual mechanics that tied different aspects of the class together. Because that's what I expected out of RDM, instead of what we got.

[adamkoolkid2]

Can't say I'm a fan of rdm.

Having both white and black mana is a silly concept on this, because the white mana is just nuke spells really. You have a bad cure and a raise... but so does smn. It's blm with dragoon jump, little more.

Ffxi the rdm outside of soloing became the same too though in terms of that sword being useless.

At least you leveled rdm starting out as a swordsman and slowly learning spells. That was cool. Here you start at 50 though with everything handed to you.

Meh

You have bad cure and raise because funnily enough you are not a healer you are dps