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  1. #1
    Player
    Duelle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    3,965
    Character
    Duelle Urelle
    World
    Diabolos
    Main Class
    Red Mage Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyce View Post
    Who said it was a pure mage? Not me, that is, because I know what a Red Mage is. Thanks for assuming that I don't, or for your sarcastic answer.
    Considering you did a callback to the "lol it has mage in the job name" argument, I think the response was warranted.
    Besides, not being able to auto-attack is such a minor thing... and probably an oversight.
    Actually, you are able to auto-attack. Auto-attack does not remove Dualcast like the tooltip says. That being said, auto-attacks deal tiny damage, and that still leaves the question of use of the sword when not 80/80 (you don't because your DPS then tanks).
    (0)
    * The sad thing is that FFXIV turned RDM into a turret, and people think that's what it's supposed to be. It's supposed to combine sword and magic into something more, not spend the bulk of gameplay spamming spells and jump into melee for only 3 GCDs before scurrying back to the back line like good little casters.
    * Design ideas:
    Red Mage - COMPLETE (https://tinyurl.com/y6tsbnjh), Chemist - Second Pass (https://tinyurl.com/ssuog88), Thief - First Pass (https://tinyurl.com/vdjpkoa), Rune Fencer - First Pass (https://tinyurl.com/y3fomdp2)

  2. #2
    Player
    Fyce's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    1,755
    Character
    Fyce Alvey
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    Summoner Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Duelle View Post
    Considering you did a callback to the "lol it has mage in the job name" argument, I think the response was warranted.
    I still think that my answer was appropriate considering that the thread is entitled "But it's a sword."

    "I have a sword, so my auto-attacks should be powerful!"

    Well, no. That's not how a Red Mage works. The main characteristic of a Red Mage is that he can use Black and White magic. Wearing a fancy hat and a sword as a catalyst doesn't make you a swordmaster. Especially if your main stat is INT.

    But it's a sword. Yeah, but it's a mage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duelle View Post
    Actually, you are able to auto-attack. Auto-attack does not remove Dualcast like the tooltip says. That being said, auto-attacks deal tiny damage, and that still leaves the question of use of the sword when not 80/80 (you don't because your DPS then tanks).
    The sword and the crystal are both used as a catalyst for casting magic. Because Red Mage is a mage.

    Jack-of-all-trades, master of none is what defines the Red Mage. It already have powerful melee skills. Can't have everything.
    (6)

  3. #3
    Player
    Duelle's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    3,965
    Character
    Duelle Urelle
    World
    Diabolos
    Main Class
    Red Mage Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyce View Post
    I still think that my answer was appropriate considering that the thread is entitled "But it's a sword."

    "I have a sword, so my auto-attacks should be powerful!"
    You're mischaracterizing the OP's post. The OP is basically saying he wants the sword to see actual use in combat, hence "poking the enemy between spells". He said nothing about the auto-attacks being powerful.

    I brought up the weak auto's to illustrate that by design the job is built to discourage melee when not 80/80. Which I feel is a problem when the job is supposed to be a sword & spell hybrid.
    The main characteristic of a Red Mage is that he can use Black and White magic. Wearing a fancy hat and a sword as a catalyst doesn't make you a swordmaster. Especially if your main stat is INT.
    The sword is a a main characteristic of RDM, otherwise the job Sage would have never been invented. The job is able to equip swords for the purpose of hitting things with said sword. The catalyst thing was only made up because the devs were looking for something that was a staff but wasn't really a staff.

    As for sword mastery, I agree that swordsmanship alone wouldn't carry a RDM, but that's why they have spells. Combining spells with melee swings would not only underline the fact that the job is a hybrid, but also help that RDM close the gap between themselves and a musclehead melee like a fighter.

    The INT thing can easily be worked around by allowing melee strikes to scale with it. Dragon Age's Arcane Warrior basically works under that principle (INT to STR scaling). Other examples of hybrids that follow a similar rule are WoW's enhance shaman (spells scale with Agility) and retribution paladin (spell effects prior to Legion scaled with Strength).
    The sword and the crystal are both used as a catalyst for casting magic. Because Red Mage is a mage.
    And thus you use the "lol it has 'mage' in the name" argument, but worded differently.
    Jack-of-all-trades, master of none is what defines the Red Mage.
    And if we really were to go by this, RDM would be sent straight to the bench for EX primals and Savage. Which is why the job was rightfully implemented as DPS with some utility.
    It already have powerful melee skills. Can't have everything.
    You're missing the point. Sword use is restricted to mana being at 80/80, since using it at any other time is basically a DPS loss. The OP, much like myself, wants the sword to see more use. This isn't so much about the raw power of the sword, but how the gameplay outright discourages its use. And that has always been counter to the idea of a RDM, which is why we had the flame wars and name-calling back in FFXI for the same damn reason; instead of having to spam Cure/Refresh/Haste, now we're spamming Jolt/Verfire/Verthunder/Veraero/Verstone until we get the mana bar's permission to get into melee.
    (2)
    * The sad thing is that FFXIV turned RDM into a turret, and people think that's what it's supposed to be. It's supposed to combine sword and magic into something more, not spend the bulk of gameplay spamming spells and jump into melee for only 3 GCDs before scurrying back to the back line like good little casters.
    * Design ideas:
    Red Mage - COMPLETE (https://tinyurl.com/y6tsbnjh), Chemist - Second Pass (https://tinyurl.com/ssuog88), Thief - First Pass (https://tinyurl.com/vdjpkoa), Rune Fencer - First Pass (https://tinyurl.com/y3fomdp2)

  4. #4
    Player
    Fyce's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
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    1,755
    Character
    Fyce Alvey
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    Summoner Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Duelle View Post
    You're mischaracterizing the OP's post. The OP is basically saying he wants the sword to see actual use in combat, hence "poking the enemy between spells". He said nothing about the auto-attacks being powerful.

    I brought up the weak auto's to illustrate that by design the job is built to discourage melee when not 80/80. Which I feel is a problem when the job is supposed to be a sword & spell hybrid.
    Hybrid doesn't mean having a strict 50/50% rate in using swordsman and caster skills.

    Besides "poking inbetween skills" means that, if OP isn't asking for auto-attacks, then it means he wants one or two oGCD to weave inbetween spells. But that would make RDM a "Melee caster DPS", and completly turn the use of Corps-a-corps and Displacement around, almost making them useless.

    Alistaire said to me that this was a Final Fantasy game. Well, all Final Fantasy games are different. For instance, Dualcast wasn't even part of the series for Red Mages before FFV. FFXIV's Red Mage is primarily a caster, jumping in for a devastating melee combo enhanced by black and white mana.

    I get that some people may want more melee action from the RDM. But not everyone does.


    -I will not answer the rest of the post as my answers would literally be "see above"-
    (7)

  5. #5
    Player
    Duelle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
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    3,965
    Character
    Duelle Urelle
    World
    Diabolos
    Main Class
    Red Mage Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyce View Post
    Hybrid doesn't mean having a strict 50/50% rate in using swordsman and caster skills.
    Hybrid also doesn't mean having things solely for the sake of having them (like a sword that is barely used).
    But that would make RDM a "Melee caster DPS", and completly turn the use of Corps-a-corps and Displacement around, almost making them useless.
    Which wouldn't be a bad thing, seeing that rotational mobility is a bad idea in a game that has things like telegraphs and ground-targeted effects to deal with in combat. It looks cool, but it's not a good element of gameplay. Not being forced to always use Displacement and Corps would simply mean the job has mobility to be used when appropriate, making those skills no different than Elusive Jump/Spineshatter Dive/Repelling Shot/Shoulder Tackle/Plunge.
    FFXIV's Red Mage is primarily a caster, jumping in for a token melee combo that is useless without black and white mana.
    Fixed it for you. The system in place is clearly built for a caster, and the melee is an afterthought that reeks of being added at the last minute. You could take out Riposte, Zwerchhau and Redoublement, replace them with a ranged mana dump ability and see next to no difference in gameplay.
    I get that some people may want more melee action from the RDM. But not everyone does.
    Much like some are happy being a turret that sometimes gets to jump around, but not everyone is.

    I don't know about you, but I'm measuring what the devs gave us against other MMO hybrids, some of which have a much better handle from both design and gameplay than our "wannabe BLM with a sword that needlessly hops around". As I've mentioned before, I had hoped the devs would learn from those other hybrids instead of essentially going "lolno".
    (1)
    Last edited by Duelle; 06-19-2017 at 01:12 PM.
    * The sad thing is that FFXIV turned RDM into a turret, and people think that's what it's supposed to be. It's supposed to combine sword and magic into something more, not spend the bulk of gameplay spamming spells and jump into melee for only 3 GCDs before scurrying back to the back line like good little casters.
    * Design ideas:
    Red Mage - COMPLETE (https://tinyurl.com/y6tsbnjh), Chemist - Second Pass (https://tinyurl.com/ssuog88), Thief - First Pass (https://tinyurl.com/vdjpkoa), Rune Fencer - First Pass (https://tinyurl.com/y3fomdp2)

  6. #6
    Player
    Klongol's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Posts
    49
    Character
    Klongol Eartheye
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Red Mage Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Duelle View Post
    I don't know about you, but I'm measuring what the devs gave us against other MMO hybrids, some of which have a much better handle from both design and gameplay than our "wannabe BLM with a sword that needlessly hops around". As I've mentioned before, I had hoped the devs would learn from those other hybrids instead of essentially going "lolno".
    Egads, you're negative.

    You keep claiming other games did hybrids better, but never source anything.

    In EQ hybrid classes were generally deemed 75% one class (Warrior mostly), and 25% another - they were wildly successful even though casting WASNT their primary role. It's pretty close to what RDM is in here, Just reversed. Hell, even in DND your hybrid folks tend to lean one way instead of the other. going truly 50/50 just gimps your character a large number of levels.

    The notion that the melee abilities were just shoehorned in is ridiculous. They also serve the purpose of being gap closers / creators, adding to their usefulness. While in Melee they included a high DPS combo to execute. How nice! I personally find the melee combo's inclusion to be super fun and rewarding. It also encourages me to try to find the fastest way to build mana so I can do it again!

    We all understand that there are people here that wanted something different than what's been presented here for RDM. The fact is it's impossible to please everyone and this is what they came up with. The Vitriol about this game's incarnation of RDM won't lead anywhere except for the production of excess salt stores. It certainly won't change the class.

    I'll echo what others have said: "Sorry you don't like RDM, why not try something else to see if you like that instead?"
    (3)
    Last edited by Klongol; 06-20-2017 at 01:10 AM.

  7. #7
    Player
    Kuukii's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    17
    Character
    Yzma Valjean
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Red Mage Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Klongol View Post

    I'll echo what others have said: "Sorry you don't like RDM, why not try something else to see if you like that instead?"
    Unfortunately for me the red mage wields a rapier which fits my characters lore but the way it plays does not. I honestly wanted a pure fencer job like the one in Bravely Second but that's not going to happen now with fancy pants in the game now. The best thing I can do as well as anybody else who wants some sort of change is to make the devs aware. I'm not asking much I just want melee skills to be more integrated with the job not some combo you use at the end.
    (2)

  8. #8
    Player
    Duelle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    3,965
    Character
    Duelle Urelle
    World
    Diabolos
    Main Class
    Red Mage Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Klongol View Post
    Egads, you're negative.
    TIL being critical of the developers = being negative.
    You keep claiming other games did hybrids better, but never source anything.
    I think I've mentioned enhance shaman and ret paladins from WoW enough to make everyone mentally add it whenever they read one of my posts on hybrids. And in case you've just joined us, Enhancement Shaman and Retribution Paladins from WoW. I can throw in Merc Bounty Hunters from SWTOR, since despite being naturally ranged because of their weapon choice, they were built on similar principles (at least as of the time the game launched; I haven't played SWTOR since February of 2012).
    The notion that the melee abilities were just shoehorned in is ridiculous.
    Look at the skill spread and how the systems are designed. The melee abilities were tacked on, because mechanically you could replace them with a 3-step Ultima spell and see almost no difference in the gameplay (you'd have a net gain of 2 skills since you wouldn't need Corps and Displacement, 4 if you made Verflare and Verholy part of the manaburn phase).
    We all understand that there are people here that wanted something different than what's been presented here for RDM. The fact is it's impossible to please everyone and this is what they came up with. The Vitriol about this game's incarnation of RDM won't lead anywhere except for the production of excess salt stores. It certainly won't change the class.
    Considering I like my french fries and fried eggs with salt, I can live with that. And don't be so sure about criticism leading nowhere. After all, BRDs complaining about Wanderer's Minuet led to the job getting its mobility back AND getting a system that put songs to use in combat. A double win for them.
    (3)
    * The sad thing is that FFXIV turned RDM into a turret, and people think that's what it's supposed to be. It's supposed to combine sword and magic into something more, not spend the bulk of gameplay spamming spells and jump into melee for only 3 GCDs before scurrying back to the back line like good little casters.
    * Design ideas:
    Red Mage - COMPLETE (https://tinyurl.com/y6tsbnjh), Chemist - Second Pass (https://tinyurl.com/ssuog88), Thief - First Pass (https://tinyurl.com/vdjpkoa), Rune Fencer - First Pass (https://tinyurl.com/y3fomdp2)