An alternative to parsers...

[DRHaymaker]

Because farm is specifically meant for people who have cleared. At this point, they have put in the work and are not obligated to help everyone else.

First, you're not only doing a poor job of refuting the claim of elitism, but you're proving my point. Second, there's no proof anyone who has cleared "put in the work", especially when paying for clears is a thing. All that no bonus proves is that at some point, you were in a party where the end result that the boss died - literally nothing else. Not how well you did, if you died, what mechanics you did right/wrong, if you were in charge of handling any mechanics. Boss died - that's it.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

First, you're not only doing a poor job of refuting the claim of elitism, but you're proving my point. Second, there's no proof anyone who has cleared "put in the work", especially when paying for clears is a thing. All that no bonus proves is that at some point, you were in a party where the end result that the boss died - literally nothing else. Not how well you did, if you died, what mechanics you did right/wrong, if you were in charge of handling any mechanics. Boss died - that's it.

Nor is their proof they will be able to handle mechanics they may have not fully sense themselves. What you are advocating for is forcing people to "give everyone a chance." If I stipulate this is a farm party, I expect people to not only have knowledge of the fight but have cleared it a few times. If they suck, I replace them. Allowing everyone in defeats the entire point. Like I said, I'm not obligated to help you or anyone else because you don't want to join learning parties. That isn't elitism, it is simply playing the odds. I am far more likely to find decent players for a farm group who have cleared than chancing on those with bonus. If it's an alt, they can send me a tell and I'll see. Otherwise, respect the parameters set by the party leader. If you don't like it, don't join that party.

[DRHaymaker]

What you are advocating for is forcing people to "give everyone a chance."

Pump the brakes there puddin' pop. I'm not advocating for anything - people can and will do whatever they want, as it is within their rights. My point was, and has always been that if people are worried about elitism being introduced if parsers were no longer against ToS, that it was already alive and well - a point you keep proving post after post.

Like I said, I'm not obligated to help you or anyone else because you don't want to join learning parties.

You're implying everyone needs help. Not everyone needs help, and not everyone needs learning parties. The fact that you think so DOES carry an elitist tone. Learning parties are not an intrinsic trait of raiding in MMOs, and other people/games have done just fine without them.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

You're implying everyone needs help. Not everyone needs help, and not everyone needs learning parties. The fact that you think so DOES carry an elitist tone. Learning parties are not an intrinsic trait of raiding in MMOs, and other people/games have done just fine without them.

They do if they haven't seen the mechanics for themselves. If they have, you join a clear party, not farm. It's a rather simple process, really.

Learning party - Players who have yet experience any mechanics from the proposed trial or raid.
Clear party - Player(s) who have seen all or most mechanics, yet haven't got their clear yet.
Farm - Players who know the fight and exact to kill it multiple time for weapons, glamour or a mount.

You later mention PUGs, which has no bearing here since you have created or joined a party that clearly outlines the expectations. You just happen to dislike it. That isn't a elitism.

[DRHaymaker]

They do if they haven't seen the mechanics for themselves.

I don't care if you refuse to concede the point, the point stands; not every MMO has learning parties, therefore not everyone needs them, therefore, not everyone needs help.

You later mention PUGs, which has no bearing here since you have created or joined a party that clearly outlines the expectations.

...those expectations you elude to are the very idea that elitist ideas already are in the game, which you are proving time and time again.

You just happen to dislike it. That isn't a elitism.

You seem to have a selective reading problem. Hold on, let me quote it for you...

I'm not advocating for anything - people can and will do whatever they want, as it is within their rights.

To make it easier for you to understand - do whatever you want. It doesn't affect me. That doesn't make your ideology any less elitist.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

I don't care if you refuse to concede the point, the point stands; not every MMO has learning parties, therefore not everyone needs them, therefore, not everyone needs help.



...those expectations you elude to are the very idea that elitist ideas already are in the game, which you are proving time and time again.



You seem to have a selective reading problem. Hold on, let me quote it for you...

I have nothing to concede because your definition of elitism... is not elitism. Who cares what other MMOs have or do? All that matters is FFXIV and how it handles content. If you don't need a learning party and feel confident in your ability to down the fight, you join a clear group. That is the sole intent; getting a clear.

Those expectations are how the community divvies content based on skill level. While you will inevitably come across bad players in supposed farm groups, it lowers the odds since you have assurance everyone has seen the mechanics in the actual game.

And no. You merely seem to believe farm parties are made up of elitists because they don't want people who haven't cleared the fight yet in their party. No matter how many times you insist otherwise, that isn't elitism.

[DRHaymaker]

Who cares what other MMOs have or do? All that matters is FFXIV and how it handles content.

There's fundamentally nothing different from a clear and learning party - both are attempting the same thing.

Those expectations are how the community divvies content based on skill level.

Clear = ilvl when it comes to quantifying one's skill. Both are equally flimsy.

While you will inevitably come across bad players in supposed farm groups, it lowers the odds since you have assurance everyone has seen the mechanics in the actual game.

Yet still, multitudes fail many "stack here" mechanics.

AYou merely seem to believe farm parties are made up of elitists because they don't want people who haven't cleared the fight yet in their party.

All of them? No. Do they noticeably exist? Absolutely.

No matter how many times you insist otherwise, that isn't elitism.

No matter how many times you insist other wise, doesn't mean there isn't a degree of elitism.