About Esuna, Exalted Detriment and Leeches change

[Ootarion]

Well (as far as we know) they are nerfing Aetherflow mana regen to 10%, which will be the same as WHM gets from Assize. So now there is the chance that ALL the healers will need it and so they are relegating it to the Healer Role Abilities.

You keep ignoring the fact that these abilities can help ALL the healers do their job, that is why SE is creating a system that allows them all to access them. The healer can then pick and choose what they believe to be necessary to complete the content they are intending to do. If they were to individualize them based on job, what is even the point of the system?

Edit: I would like to point out that these are also not direct healing spells, but utility abilities.

Not sure where in my previous post I said "Manas" but you asked "If they were to individualize them based on job, what is even the point of the system?" to that I say it is due to the simple fact that WHM has Esuna (Status Remover) and Shroud of Saints (MP refresher and Enmity reducer) built into WHM. AST has Exalted Detriment (Status Remover) and Luminiferous Aether (MP refresher but unlike Shroud of Saints does not reduce Enmity), and Scholar has Leeches (Status Remover) but what they never had was anything remotely the same as Shroud of Saints or Luminiferous Aether. But they dont have to take those things from WHM and AST just to give one to SCH as well. Furthermore, what is even the point in doing this? They took things that were core built into WHM and AST (which meant they didnt have to Cross Role them) and now those two healers have to Cross Role to use them, just to make SCHs have the same abilities.....they inconvenienced two healer classes just to make the third one feel better, which they didnt have to do....all they had to do was just give SCH an MP refresher of the same kind as WHM and AST and there you go....SCH has a built in MP Refresher....as for Leeches being learned at lvl 40, simple solution to that, just give them the spell at an earlier job class quest rather then a later one OR give the Arcanist a built in Cleanse spell that ONLY carries over to SCH and not SMN as well, which is perfectly possible to program....

[TaleraRistain]

Eh, the only thing I'm worried about is the story content involving Leeches. Though that's easily remedied by simply changing it Esuna (though what will we learn in the lv 40 SCH quest now? I haven't seen anything about that yet)

Probably the same thing WHM will get at 40 for losing Divine Seal. Nothing.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

Status removal is used all the time.

I can count on one hand the # of important debuffs that absolutely must be Esuna'd. For most DoTs, you can either heal through the damage, or the afflicted person can just use a free antidote at no charge to you, so you can keep dpsing. Paralysis? If it's not on a caster, very safe to ignore, as it's a very minor loss 90% of the time, and wasting time on an Esuna is an even bigger loss, especially since it's very possible for paralysis to never trip. Doom? Except for Death gaze Hollow, 100% avoidable, so if someone dies to it, it's on them, not the healer.

I'd say status removal qualifies as button bloat, and I hate healer dps, despite using it as an example.

[Ootarion]

I hate healer dps, despite using it as an example.

Any extra damage can still make a fight end faster.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

Any extra damage can still make a fight end faster.

Just pointing out that if someone is pointing out an alternative they hate to be a better use of time than debuff removal, it really does point out how absolutely worthless debuff removal really is.

[Fyce]

as for Leeches being learned at lvl 40, simple solution to that, just give them the spell at an earlier job class quest rather then a later one OR give the Arcanist a built in Cleanse spell that ONLY carries over to SCH and not SMN as well, which is perfectly possible to program....

As a SMN main, I'm contractually obligated to give you a gentle slap in the face for suggesting that we, SMN, should lose one skill from ACN just because of your tantrum on a system you dislike.

[Ootarion]

As a SMN main, I'm contractually obligated to give you a gentle slap in the face for suggesting that we, SMN, should lose one skill from ACN just because of your tantrum on a system you dislike.

Ummmm I never once attempted to imply that SMN lose something.....I had said that whatever Debuff Removal Arcanist could learn prior to Scholar, is something that would only carry over to Scholar, I never said at all that something be removed from Arcanist that normally carries over to Summoner, only saying that the Debuff Remover that Arcanist could learn, would carry over to Scholar and not Summoner. Im sorry If I wasnt clearer on that.

Addendum: I see where you got the wrong impression, but the thing is, Arcanist as you know is a class that splits off into a Healer and DPS, so for as long as the Arcanist stays the Arcanist it is kind of a Healer/DPS hybrid, but the moment it goes SMN it no longer is a healer/dps hybrid, so why should Summoner retain the use of a Debuff Remover when Debuff Removal isnt the purpose of something that is primarily built to do damage? Granted I know Summoners can also Revive people but I normally only ever see a Summoner revive people in an emergency if the Healer cant for some reason and if Summoners suddenly had a Debuff Remover they can use all the time like Esuna, Exalted Detriment and Leeches, wouldnt that add to the already sheer amount of buttons that Summoner has? I mean I had to make a macro specifically designed to use Bio II, Miasma, Shadow Flare and Bio (exactly in that order) just to free up my hotbar space as a Summoner, and Im a lvl 53 Summoner right now, so i dont even have all the abilities yet but I am aware they get something called Tri-Disaster that applies Bio, Bio II and Miasma to a target. So I know from personal experience that they shouldnt add a Debuff Remover to the Job when they've got a huge array of usable abilities to begin with.

[Phixx]

Furthermore, what is even the point in doing this? They took things that were core built into WHM and AST (which meant they didnt have to Cross Role them) and now those two healers have to Cross Role to use them, just to make SCHs have the same abilities.....they inconvenienced two healer classes just to make the third one feel better, which they didnt have to do....all they had to do was just give SCH an MP refresher of the same kind as WHM and AST and there you go....SCH has a built in MP Refresher....

The thing is, it inconveniences SCH more because now we might have to take an MP refresh to use on top of Aetherflow, so your argument becomes a bit backwards and your solution puts SCH in the same bind.

the devs are changing them from inherently learned spells to Cross-Class/Role abilities, but why? WHY do this? Why make these spells something you have to WASTE (and it is a waste no matter what the Devs or anyone says) a Cross Role slot on to use? WHO is going to leave an essential spell like these off their hot bar? And WHY would you?

This was your original argument. Mine is that not all of these spells are required all the time and that the devs are trying to consolidate the number of spells that each job has. You also need to remember that you cannot look at Healer Role Abilities in a vacuum, all roles are getting them.
With that in mind if they let us keep our dispels what would they replace it with? Why is it a bad design that you can now choose if you have your dispel or something else, other than it "wastes" what exactly?

- As a SCH, I don't need Protect for any dungeon before Brayflox's Longstop because my fairy is able to heal them without my assistance, therefore Protect is optional to me in those dungeons.
- AS1 has nothing to dispel, but phase 1 of that fight is where the group should be attempting to burn the boss; I can take Cleric Stance instead to increase my damage and make the fight easier.

I have 2 actual counterarguments though:

1: Of all the abilities listed, I consider Swiftcast to be the only one that is required for all healers at all times (high level content). You are never going to see a healer not take it. So if it is such a requirement, like you spout about the other abilities, why is it not baseline for healers; why aren't you arguing for it to be?
2: BRD and MCH both lost their MP and TP regens to Role Abilities, but I have not come across a thread where they are complaining, why is that? (Or can you find one to prove me wrong on this)

[Ootarion]

The thing is, it inconveniences SCH more because now we might have to take an MP refresh to use on top of Aetherflow, so your argument becomes a bit backwards and your solution puts SCH in the same bind.




This was your original argument. Mine is that not all of these spells are required all the time and that the devs are trying to consolidate the number of spells that each job has. You also need to remember that you cannot look at Healer Role Abilities in a vacuum, all roles are getting them.
With that in mind if they let us keep our dispels what would they replace it with? Why is it a bad design that you can now choose if you have your dispel or something else, other than it "wastes" what exactly?

-As a SCH, I don't need Protect for any dungeon before Brayflox's Longstop because my fairy is able to heal them without my assistance, therefore Protect is optional to me in those dungeons.
- AS1 has nothing to dispel, but phase 1 of that fight is where the group should be attempting to burn the boss; I can take Cleric Stance instead to increase my damage and make the fight easier.

I have 2 actual counterarguments though:

1: Of all the abilities listed, I consider Swiftcast to be the only one that is required for all healers at all times (high level content). You are never going to see a healer not take it. So if it is such a requirement, like you spout about the other abilities, why is it not baseline for healers; why aren't you arguing for it to be?
2: BRD and MCH both lost their MP and TP regens to Role Abilities, but I have not come across a thread where they are complaining, why is that? (Or can you find one to prove me wrong on this)

1) You asked me "What would they replace it with?" I dont know, I personally feel the Cross Roles dont all have to have a total of 10 skills in them, Ive seen people make the comment that the only reason Esuna was added to Cross Role (which subsequently means that WHM, AST and SCHs lost their built in ones) simply to make the Healer Cross Role symmetrical by having a total of 10 skills just like Tank and DPS when the reality of it is, the Cross Roles dont need to have the same amount of skills.

2) I consider Swiftcast to be important as well, so then why haven't I suggested that it become a spell that all healers have inherently? Well before I answer that, I feel I should point out that this feels like a trick question in order to try and trap me in something. As for my answer, well as there is no other way for me to answer the question other then saying that I haven't suggested that they do so, because I often times dont need it in EARLIER level dungeons (and this is where Im betting Im going to be told that Debuff Removers are just the same, but I dont agree to that), infact I would say that ive had more instances of needing a Debuff Remover in most dungeons then Ive needed Swiftcast, infact right now Ive got Swiftcast set as a lvl 40 Cross Class.

3) As for BRD and MCH, I never knew that they were having these things taken from them. Had I known that, I would have openly spoken out in disapproval, and I don't even main as BRD or MCH. Why would I speak out in defense of classes I don't even main? Because I see things such as MP and TP regenerative abilities (even though TP regenerates reasonably fast on it's own) as important must haves, and if they had them as part of their core kit, then there is a reason they do.

I feel I should point out that if the Cross Role had an extra slot or two and not just 5 usable slots, then I think people might be a bit more receptive of the change, some people Ive seen comment on the matter are upset because they, like myself, feel that the only GOOD skills from the Healer Cross Role are Esuna, Protect, Lucid Dreaming, Largesse and Swiftcast, infact Ive seen people in this thread say something to that same effect. These abilities are so good, that abilities like Surecast, Break, Eye for an Eye, Rescue and Cleric Stance will rarely see the light of day cause they are so situational.

For example

1) Surecast: Ive never had to use Surecast cause if the Tank(s) is doing their job, I shouldnt be getting hit so often that Im interrupted in the middle of a cast

2) Break: Ive never really needed a slow (Stone 1 as WHM or Stella as AST) cause Ive got Holy (WHM) and Celestial Opposition (AST) as CC, plus as a WHM I can put enemies to sleep to give me breathing room. Arcanists have Miasma which they learn at lvl 10, which among the plethora of other things it afflicts a target with, it slows them as well.

3) Eye for an Eye: I don't not even know how many times Ive ever seen this used, if Ive even ever seen it getting used all that much, Ive maybe seen it used a total of 5 times ever in my time playing and this is counting the one or two times that Ive given it a try while playing as my Scholar. I can see the usefulness of it, but at the same time, again, Ive barely seen it being used, it comes off as an either unwanted or useless ability (correct me if I am wrong).

4) Rescue: I can see how this would actually be nice for when you are partying with people who either A) Are not paying attention to where they are standing or B) Are new to a mechanic and need to be saved. But, by the same token, if people know to move and not stand in the path of a very much so avoidable attack, then this ability isnt going to see much use, unless it works on people who are frozen and are they themselves unable to move under their own power. But in most cases, if you are in a static group or even pugs with people who clearly know what they are doing, this ability is going to be pretty useless.

5) Cleric Stance: What's there to say? I mean 5% extra damage is nice indeed, would be even nicer though if I could have this and my 5 other desired abilities equipped, IE Esuna, Protect, Lucid Dreaming, Largesse and Swiftcast but given what Ive seen I know I cant. But by the same token Im likely never to use Cleric Stance since that extra 5% while nice, just doesnt quite compare to the usefulness (at least to me) of my 5 preferred.

[Furious]

- As a SCH, I don't need Protect for any dungeon before Brayflox's Longstop because my fairy is able to heal them without my assistance, therefore Protect is optional to me in those dungeons.

Awesome; I shall expect to see your support for moving all scholar heals to cross-class abilities as well in the near future.

Debuff removal is there for if and when you need it, sometimes unexpectedly. Shit happens, all the time.

2: BRD and MCH both lost their MP and TP regens to Role Abilities, but I have not come across a thread where they are complaining, why is that?

They won't always take them, especially not TP. Depends on group composition and content. These just aren't the same kinds of ability as debuff removal is. Furthermore, the options that they do have now no longer reduce their own damage, so who's going to complain about that?

There are two types of ability in cross class and one shouldn't be there. There are abilities that you don't always need or want to have, and there are abilities that are there only because they want all roles to have them, so they shoved them into the hole. As I said; you could put all cures into cross class and the argument would be the same. Sometimes you don't need to cure. Ergo; you should have the ability to choose something else, right? Same with healer dps abilities! Why do I have to have dps abilities?! I should be able to pick more utility instead! (lolol)

No.