About Esuna, Exalted Detriment and Leeches change

[Fawkes]

Whats so different about healers v. every other role in the game? Melee DPS HAVE to take Invigorate. Tanks HAVE to take provoke. These are essential skills!! I could list more and more, but really, this is what the role skills are for!! Its to put the less meaningful skills into, so that the more meaningful ones that are being added, can help define the job!!

The system is bad for everyone, hooray!

You're in the healer section of the forums, btw.

[Nyghtmarerobu]

The system is bad for everyone, hooray!

You're in the healer section of the forums, btw.

I was making a point. But thats cool, Thanks for not giving anything to the argument in that post.

[Fawkes]

I was making a point. But thats cool, Thanks for not giving anything to the argument in that post.

Ok.

Melee DPS HAVE to take Invigorate. Tanks HAVE to take provoke. These are essential skills!! I could list more and more, but really, this is what the role skills are for!! Its to put the less meaningful skills into, so that the more meaningful ones that are being added, can help define the job!!

How exactly does putting essential skills in the role ability list along with the less meaningful ones help define the job? If the skills are essential then why make them optional? That's the opposite of defining a job.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

1) How about we move most if not all of your Enmity generators as a tank to Cross Role?

Rampart
Convalescence
Provoke

All tanks lost defensive cooldowns and threat builders to the class role system. DRK lost Shadowskin, reprisal, and Low Blow(and procs), War lost Foresight, Brutal Swing(their stun) and lulflash, PLD lost Rampart, Convalescence, and Provoke.

The difference between? I can't name a single tank that's crying over the lost tools(Well... except DRK's Scourge), because not having them means we either adjust, or spend a slot to get them back, if we deem them necessary.

Sastasha Hard, Hullbreaker Isle Hard, Wander's Palace Hard, and Fractal Continuum

SasH it was only mandatory for the goo scorpion at the beginning, Hullbreaker it really didn't have any effect at all at any point, Wanderers had nothing to esuna, and Fractal? Someone gets hit with bleed, Regen and get back to DPSing. Hell, barring any fight with Doom you can very safely remove Esuna from your hot bar because it only matters in less than 5% of the game's content. I would, and will, gladly trade it away in a heart beat. I have other more important things to get.

These aren't intended to replace esuna though, just to give DPS a possible self-rescue

This is ALSO incorrect. Neither of the dps role skills can be used on themselves, only other party members barring a change before release. I'm speaking of Crutch and Erase, respectively, of course. Then again, Bard's also have Keepers Paean(Warden's? I can never remember) which both cleanses all debuffs AND shields from another one. Fact check, please.

[Nyghtmarerobu]

How exactly does putting essential skills in the role ability list along with the less meaningful ones help define the job? If the skills are essential then why make them optional? That's the opposite of defining a job.

By putting the essential skills there, they can focus on making skills specifically for the job. Dropping skills like, esuna, divine seal, eye for an eye, into a pool for all healers, they expanded on what each job does. Whm got its lily mechanic and skills based around it, Sch got its fairy heal along with its crit resist down, and astro got 2 new cards, 1 for heals and 1 for dps. Not only did this allow to add more to the class without adding more buttons, and allowing the jobs to be more independant from each other, with more intresting skills to acompany each job to better distinguish them.

Just for the sake of another example, tanks have fallen into this as well. Voke, rampart, Convalescence, Awareness, Reprisal, Low blow. These are all pretty important skills to their respective jobs, but by moving them to a big pool for them all, not only has it lessened the bloat of tanks as far as buttons, its made it quite a bit more competitive in the raid scene. Warriors no longer have a strangle hold on the OT slot for comps anymore, as a majority of the reasons it was there to begin with were due to what it brought to the table. With Reprisal in the role skills, storms path isn't a thing anymore, and it can be used on demand! This change among others, is what makes the system shine the way it does.

[Aramina]

Ok.



How exactly does putting essential skills in the role ability list along with the less meaningful ones help define the job? If the skills are essential then why make them optional? That's the opposite of defining a job.

I believe what she is saying is that we will be defined by our unique abilities, not the ones every healer always had.

edit: To play pretend for a moment....

Let's say all healers could have a standard of 15 buttons from their specific job. You could have 10 unique buttons and 5 buttons that were c/p between the healers or you could move those 5 that are c/p out of the mix and have 15 unique buttons.

Disclaimer 1: These are clearly not actual numbers, it is just meant to illustrate a point.
Disclaimer 2: Why don't they move cure etc to cross role then? Because you need basic functionality in your role regardless of what cross-role skills you pick. I am not going going to get into the arguement of whether or not protect/esuna should be considered basic functionality as it has been done to death.

[Fawkes]

By putting the essential skills there, they can focus on making skills specifically for the job. Dropping skills like, esuna, divine seal, eye for an eye, into a pool for all healers, they expanded on what each job does. Whm got its lily mechanic and skills based around it, Sch got its fairy heal along with its crit resist down, and astro got 2 new cards, 1 for heals and 1 for dps. Not only did this allow to add more to the class without adding more buttons, and allowing the jobs to be more independant from each other, with more intresting skills to acompany each job to better distinguish them.

But if the skills are essential, and every job has to take them anyway, then why not just give everyone esuna/provoke/invigorate innately and only let people pick 4 out of 9 skills? What does making essential things optional do for us?

Also, the role ability system doesn't save that much hotbar space, especially if the skills are essential because you probably don't want to move them around if they are. I don't know about every other class, but I had more than enough space for the 2 new WHM abilities on my cross hotbars. And with the consolidation of stones and aero and removal of stoneskin 2 I would have even more extra space. I'll only need about 1.5 cross hotbars in Stormblood, so I won't even need the expanded L+R stuff they've been adding. I'm all set on hotbar space up till 7.0 now.

[Aramina]

But if the skills are essential, and every job has to take them anyway, then why not just give everyone esuna/provoke/invigorate innately and only let people pick 4 out of 9 skills? What does making essential things optional do for us?

Simply put: Because they won't be essential in all situations. I am not claiming the system is perfect (because it isn't), but I kiiiiiinda see where they were attempting to go with it, and hopefully future iterations will be better.

[Nyghtmarerobu]

Simply put: Because they won't be essential in all situations. I am not claiming the system is perfect (because it isn't), but I kiiiiiinda see where they were attempting to go with it, and hopefully future iterations will be better.

Thank you for helping articulate what I've been trying to say a little better.

[Aramina]

Thank you for helping articulate what I've been trying to say a little better.

You're very welcome