About Esuna, Exalted Detriment and Leeches change

[Nyghtmarerobu]

You really do not understand my point..../

Same could be said for you, when reading mine.

White Mage already has Esuna built into the class, Astrologian has Exalted Detriment and Scholar has Leeches, all of these spells remove debuffs and are built into these three classes and they dont need to cross class them, WHY do these need to be ONE spell that is now going to be a Cross Role!?

I've already said this, but you have shot it down, like many others. Skill bloat. Yes, esuna in the kit v. in role skills doesn't mean you lose a button, but when you have to replace that wether it be in your kit, or in the role skill pool, you still have 1 extra button.

Same thing for how spells like Shroud of Saints for WHM and Luminiferous Aether are being replaced with the ability Lucid Dreaming which is oh hello another Cross Role skill when they already had MP regenerative abilities BUILT into their classes.

Regardless of what you think, healers, ALL healers, even sch's, need ballad from time to time, and putting this into Role skills is a good idea. And to top it off, Shroud of Saints, and Luminiferous both do the same effect, but do different %'s of MP restored. Shroud only lasts 15 seconds while Luminiferous lasts 24 seconds, both on the same CD timer. So why not consolidate them, and make it across all healers.

On a side note to this skill, there are a few other moves in the game to give healers MP, and this may not even need to be something to have as a role skill, as Ranged DPS have Ballad, and Caster DPS also have a Mana Shift ability.

SCH and Summoner I rarely see have MP problems since Aetherflow is so darn good with replenishing it, IF ANYTHING they should give a new core built spell to SCH and maybe SMN that refreshes MP over time, but again, Ive rarely seen them need it >:l.

Why do that when you can just make it a role skill?! Hell, its actually happening!!

Why are you defending this? I dont know if it is your intention or not but you are coming off as someone who refuses to acknowledge when devs they are fans of make a mistake because you like them so much you think them incapable of making mistakes :/

I'm defending this because its a good move on SE's part. If you can't see past your short sightedness, and look at the bigger picture, besides what you THINK will effect you in stormblood, I can't help you. You've already addmited you don't do/have any savage raid exp..

To Aramina: Yes, I havent done end game raids, admittingly the only raid I recall doing so far is Crystal Tower.

With that said, I defend this for what it is, a good change. You disagree with me, and that is fine, but I suggest you try to look at what other people say.. you don't have to admit defeat, but you have to be open to suggestion, and look at things from a different angle...

(and it is a waste no matter what the Devs or anyone says)

-- From OP's original post.

[LegoTechnic]

Frankly I'm not happy with their method of mana regen balance as we've seen so far. Aetherize has been nerfed to 10% return, and Assize buffed to a 60 second cooldown, meaning both moves restore 10% mana on a 60 second cooldown. Further, both classes get Lucid Dreaming as a refresh mechanic, making WHM/SCH mana regen identical outside of Energy Drain despite SCH having higher equivalent mana costs for the majority of their spells across the board (example: 960 mana for broil III vs 720 mana for Stone IV and Malefic II). While AST has only Lucid Dreaming and their rogue Ewer, they have comparatively lower mana costs to compensate, but the normalization of classes is still boring. Hopefully this is one of the issues they address between the April build showcased and release.

An additional joke with Lucid Dreaming is that they had to cross-role it to caster DPS as well, mainly to help SMN who also lost 10% mana regen on their Aetherize, but this means it's also available to BLMs which is pretty silly.

The esuna issue is frankly a poor design choice. It feels like they did it only because they needed 10 skills and all healers had the skill originally, and likely cross-rolling Cure I would have been too asinine. The fact is that often esuna is a required spell, especially when Doom and throttle effects are involved since the new DPS cleans likely do not handle its debuff type, and constantly swapping abilities per encounter is unintuitive and annoying, especially with no ability to save multiple "specs" to switch between. More than likely everyone will take it regardless as a quality of life issue, unless somehow debuffs and monsters known for them (like Morbols) become far less apparent in the gameplay.

[Ootarion]

There are other ways to have conditions removed than esuna.

Who won't take swiftcast? Protect? E4E? CS? Largesse? CS? Lucid Dreaming? They could just as easily build that into each class, rename it, etc.

Oh no! It looks like I can't take all those skills at the time. Guess I've got a.choice to make depending on the encounter. Let's be honest, this is a huge step up from the cross class system. Role skill choice actually mean something. If you personally feel like you must have esuna all the time, by all means take it.

1) "There are other ways to have conditions removed than Esuna" Ummm like what? Potions? Whose gonna waste money buying and using potions for that? Why should we need to? Esuna (White Mage), Exalted Detriment (Astrologian) and Leeches (Scholar) are a core part of these three healers, and not some needless Cross Role variation that they have to waste 1 of 5 slots to equip.....seriously, why are people not understanding that this is a blatantly stupid decision?


2) "Oh no! It looks like I can't take all those skills at the same time" Healers are most likely going to take Esuna, Protect, Largesse, Lucid Dreaming and Swiftcast, which means the other 5 Cross Role skills will rarely, if ever, see the light of day. The Spells Esuna, Exalted Detriment, and Leeches (which again all do the same thing) were built into the three healers as a part of their core kit, and thus SHOULDNT EVEN BE lopped into the Cross Role like they will be, that is stupid and nothing anyone says, does or thinks will change that. This is no step up, it is a step down, and taking away the MP Regeneration abilities that White Mage and Astrologian had (Shroud of Saints and Luminiferous Aether respectively) and thrusting them into the Lucid Dreaming Cross Role ability is equally as stupid, and it is sad that you dont see that, why should you need to Cross Role abilities that were already BUILT INTO YOU before Stormblood?

I mean jeez, as a White Mage you inherently have Esuna, Protect, Shroud of Saints and Divine Seal, why should these be taken away from White Mages and turned into Cross Role skills?

As an Astrologian you inherently have Exalted Detriment (does the same thing as Esuna just different name and animation/visual), Luminiferous Aether (same thing as Shroud of Saints except does not reduce built up Enmity) and the Astrologian ability called Synastry had a built in 20% healing buff just like White Mage's Divine Seal.

Scholars have Leeches (same thing as Esuna and Exalted Detriment), they had an impressive MP regeneration skill called Aetherflow which I hear is getting slammed in how much MP it restores, they also have Dissipation which is their version of Divine Seal as it increases Healing by 20% as well

There are so many similar abilities that White Mage, Astrologian and Scholar all have built into them, that are now being taken away and shoved NEEDLESSLY into the Cross Role, if you and others truly think this is in any way smart, when it is such an obvious waste of Cross Role slots, then omg.....

[Ootarion]

Okay, Nyghtmarerubo, it is clear that we are not going to agree with each other, I'm done arguing in circles with you, if you don't agree with me, fine, but I know I am not wrong.

This change helps no one, the only thing it really does that is in any way beneficial, is that all healers will get Largesse at lvl 40, where as the soonest SCH could get their Dissipation (their version of Divine Seal) is lvl 60 and ASTs had to wait till lvl 50 to get Synastry.

[winsock]

1) "There are other ways to have conditions removed than Esuna" Ummm like what? Potions? Whose gonna waste money buying and using potions for that? Why should we need to? Esuna (White Mage), Exalted Detriment (Astrologian) and Leeches (Scholar) are a core part of these three healers, and not some needless Cross Role variation that they have to waste 1 of 5 slots to equip.....seriously, why are people not understanding that this is a blatantly stupid decision?

Classes other than healers can remove some conditions in SB as well. We dont know enough yet to know if it was a bad decision or not. Content will determine that.

Healers are most likely going to take Esuna, Protect, Largesse, Lucid Dreaming and Swiftcast, which means the other 5 Cross Role skills will rarely, if ever, see the light of day. The Spells Esuna, Exalted Detriment, and Leeches (which again all do the same thing) were built into the three healers as a part of their core kit, and thus SHOULDNT EVEN BE lopped into the Cross Role like they will be, that is stupid and nothing anyone says, does or thinks will change that. This is no step up, it is a step down, and taking away the MP Regeneration abilities that White Mage and Astrologian had (Shroud of Saints and Luminiferous Aether respectively) and thrusting them into the Lucid Dreaming Cross Role ability is equally as stupid, and it is sad that you dont see that, why should you need to Cross Role abilities that were already BUILT INTO YOU before Stormblood?

You've already made up your mind before playing SB? Considering how low the HPS check is in some content (esp overgeared) why not experiment with dropping largesse or protect for something else? Personally, im looking forward to rescue and the final iteration of cleric stance.

I mean jeez, as a White Mage you inherently have Esuna, Protect, Shroud of Saints and Divine Seal, why should these be taken away from White Mages and turned into Cross Role skills?

Consider a larger picture. It's easy to view DS as a loss for WHM right? We lose a role slot for taking it. The 'bigger picture' part is that everyone losses a role slot for taking it, not just WHM. Thing is, WHM healing potencies may allow WHM to drop DS in favor of another skill. For example, if DS is a big boost to SCH during XYZ part of a fight, but WHM can make due with Cure III, WHM actually has an advantage by being able to take other roles skills. Also, inherent protect currently gives WHM little to no advantage.... unless you are an avid user of Blizzard II and Surecast.

There are so many similar abilities that White Mage, Astrologian and Scholar all have built into them, that are now being taken away and shoved NEEDLESSLY into the Cross Role, if you and others truly think this is in any way smart, when it is such an obvious waste of Cross Role slots, then omg.....

"then omg" is a way to avoid explaining yourself. It's a game. Technically, everything is "needless". Please explain why this change is so bad in a logical way. "omg" and "that is stupid" and "nothing anyone says, does or thinks will change that" and "it is a waste no matter what the Devs or anyone says" is not a logical argument, that's angst.

Moving from inherent to role isnt inherently bad. If you were brand new to the game, and didnt know these skill where inherent originally, would you still have the same opinion? Why?

[LegoTechnic]

Classes other than healers can remove some conditions in SB as well. We dont know enough yet to know if it was a bad decision or not. Content will determine that.

Before this sentiment gains any traction, melee DPS have a cross role that can remove a single bind or heavy, and caster DPS get one to remove a single Damage Over Time debuff. Both of these are on a 90 second cooldown. Their intention is to give DPS an emergency save to self-cover when healers are unable to reach them for one reason or another similar to the Second Wind self-heal, because it's frustrating to die because the heavy took too long to drop off. These aren't intended to replace esuna though, just to give DPS a possible self-rescue. However neither move effects non-damaging statuses like doom, throttle, confusion, mog charm, or vulnerability up.

Any fight where debuffs occur with regularity will want esuna unless you can either prevent their application with shields or heal through their damage with regens. Having to switch in between fights will not be fun, and you will want esuna regardless when doing half the duty roulettes anyway, so more than likely you'll take esuna unless attempting to use a specific loadout for serious raiding, or I guess if you want to troll with Rescue.

[Fyce]

Esuna is a dead button 90% of the time.
All three healers have a skill that does exactly the same thing.

So, it's actually a prime contender to fit the cross-role skills.

[Nyghtmarerobu]

Okay, Nyghtmarerubo, it is clear that we are not going to agree with each other, I'm done arguing in circles with you, if you don't agree with me, fine, but I know I am not wrong.

Thats too bad. but I'm glad you just shut off when you can't come up with a real rebuttle. You harp the same thing and yet, when people voice their opinion on how they feel about it, you just shut them down, and ignore them.

and it is a waste no matter what the Devs or anyone says!!

"then omg" is a way to avoid explaining yourself. It's a game. Technically, everything is "needless". Please explain why this change is so bad in a logical way. "omg" and "that is stupid" and "nothing anyone says, does or thinks will change that" and "it is a waste no matter what the Devs or anyone says" is not a logical argument, that's angst.

Thank you winsock..

[CaptnYesterday]

Agree with OP. It is a waste to have so many essential abilities stuffed into the role slots. I've mained a WHM for a long time and looking at that list? What are garbage fire for the sake of symmetry. Basically having to choose all five from essential need. Even if the new content does not require it, the old content does. Queuing up for multiple content selections is part of the game too. So realistically, I think most healers will consider Esuna to be a required ability and, unless constantly switching out abilities becomes a real thing, they will just leave it on their bar. Opinions and meta aside, vast majority of players will probably do this.

Also consider new content. You always have to have it on the bar because you don't know if it's needed or not.

[Nyghtmarerobu]

Basically having to choose all five from essential need.

Whats so different about healers v. every other role in the game? Melee DPS HAVE to take Invigorate. Tanks HAVE to take provoke. These are essential skills!! I could list more and more, but really, this is what the role skills are for!! Its to put the less meaningful skills into, so that the more meaningful ones that are being added, can help define the job!!