About Esuna, Exalted Detriment and Leeches change

[Ootarion]

I didn't say anything of the sort... I was using an example of existing fights - neither of which you have apparently done? For example, in A3S last phase 2 people will get debuff that has to be erased within certain time or they'll die. At the same time, the tank is getting hit hard. So instead of both healers not healing the tank who is getting beaten to death, we (and to my knowledge, all the other groups doing that fight) chose to have 1 healer erase the debuffs while the other made sure the tank was kept alive. Both healers were working 100% and had their own, important responsibilities. And then there's you, without apparently any experience whatsoever from these kind of fights in this game, telling us, the healers who've actually done this content, how our playing is lazy, irresponsible and unfair. xD

Because you gave the impression, whether it was your intention or not, that only one healer should ever heal while the other heals and removes debuffs, thats the impression you gave, if that wasnt the case then I apologize.

But if it is the case, then how is that even remotely both healers doing 100% work? I am willing to bet that at any given point in time, both healers in your group are healing, removing debuffs and reviving as needed, but the way, again, you carried yourself, it sounded like you are saying that isnt the case, is this what you are saying?

[Aramina]

Because I play and party regularly with one of the best healers Ive ever known, and when we both heal, we share in the burden and both give it our all as any reasonable player would, we dont make one do more work then the other, not in the slightest, if you and your peeps are fine with doing that, that is your choice, but neither myself, nor he, would ever do that, as we would find it lazy, irresponsible and unfair, and we've never told eachother to do less work then the other healer, and I agree with him, if there is more then one healer, you share in the burden.

Did you read Taika's post? If she and her cohealer attempted to share all responsibility either the tank would die if they were both trying to dispel debuffs, or the dps with debuffs would die if they were both trying to heal the tank. Not sorting who is to focus on what is irresponsible.

But if it is the case, then how is that even remotely both healers doing 100% work?

Because they both did the job they needed to do for the party to win the fight.

[Lemuria]

the other abilities weren't inherent on all 3 healers so everyone kinda got something out of the system like a better version of shroud for whm

I'm not entirely convinced WHM did get a 'better version of shroud'. All of the gasps and gapes are focused solely on the MP regeneration side of things, ignoring the fact that Shroud of Saints had a secondary benefit, that of halving any and all enmity you currently hold.

No doubt someone will argue that healers shouldn't be pulling aggro anyway and blah blah, but it can happen to even the best parties and Shroud can turn a bad situation around in an instant. That we're also now forced to use one of our extra slots for its replacement is an added slap in the face. Honestly, it kind of feels like SE gutted white mage on this one, just to share pieces of us out to everyone else.

[Aramina]

I'm not entirely convinced WHM did get a 'better version of shroud'. All of the gasps and gapes are focused solely on the MP regeneration side of things, ignoring the fact that Shroud of Saints had a secondary benefit, that of halving any and all enmity you currently hold.

Doesn't the new one do that as well? Going back to watch video.

edit: Yep, it does.

[Ootarion]

Did you read Taika's post? If she and her cohealer attempted to share all responsibility either the tank would die if they were both trying to dispel debuffs, or the dps with debuffs would die if they were both trying to heal the tank. Not sorting who is to focus on what is irresponsible.

Because they both did the job they needed to do for the party to win the fight.

Look, I need to point out that when Ive done raids, I make sure people are topped off on health constantly, and when I can, I removed Debuffs as well, and both myself and my friend would do so, we would heal and debuff as needed, there wasnt just one of us doing that, but it probably helped that we were on Voice chat doing so, so we delegated. But we both removed debuffs, and healed, and revived, and people scarcely died. I wouldnt carelessly attempt to remove a debuff first if someone is close to dead, I heal them first then remove a debuff, I do this in 4 person and 8+ person parties, and it's never failed.

Added: Look, Taika, I clearly have offended you, which was never at all my intention from the beginning so for that I apologize. But answer me this, as a healer yourself, with your co healer, are either of you EVER doing both healing and debuff removal? Because in every instance Ive ever done where I had a Co Healer, we've both healed and removed debuffs, and any parties Ive been in, have rarely lost. So forgive me for not seeing the sense in what you are saying. It has never had to apply to parties Ive been in, my success rate is extremely high, so forgive me for my confusion.

[Aramina]

With all due respect: http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...cter/10277019/ shows that you have no gear from the current raid, which is what Taika was discussing. You can't comment what should/shouldn't be done in a particular raid that you have not participated in. In situations where debuffs are not an immediate concern (ie ticking damage within reason can be dispelled at leisure while a debuff that will one shot you within 5 seconds can not) then people will share the responsibility. With the new cross-role system however, they can choose to get the most bang for their buck as a healing UNIT by not overlapping skills. Don't think of yourself and your cohealer as different entities, think of yourself as a team and what is the most that can be done by that team.

[Taika]

Added: Look, Taika, I clearly have offended you, which was never at all my intention from the beginning so for that I apologize. But answer me this, as a healer yourself, with your co healer, are either of you EVER doing both healing and debuff removal?

Don't worry, you haven't offended me! I found it funny.

Like I said, in each fight, we know what will happen in each part and then we agree how it's best to divide our responsibilities in that part. Like in that example: we know that at the same time 2 people will need Esuna and the tank will need healing. If we'd both try to do both without agreeing who does what, we'd risk neglecting one of those tasks. How we divide our responsibilities varies from fight to fight, but in all fights so far we've both at least done some healing at some points. Apart from A9S Faust which he solo heals 100% while I go 100% DPS. The point is, we're both aiming for 100% activity while being as useful as possible to our group as a healer team. Maybe this is enough of off topic now?

Because in every instance Ive ever done where I had a Co Healer, we've both healed and removed debuffs, and any parties Ive been in, have rarely lost. So forgive me for not seeing the sense in what you are saying. It has never had to apply to parties Ive been in, my success rate is extremely high, so forgive me for my confusion.

Have you done any Coil or Alexander Savage while they've been current (pre-echo)? Because that's the context I'm talking about. I understand you're confused if you haven't actually done any content that's challenging enough that the healers will have to split their responsibilities to succeed. But in that case, why talk down about raid healing to people who are actually much more experienced in it than you are...

Don't think of yourself and your cohealer as different entities, think of yourself as a team and what is the most that can be done by that team.

Exactly, you need to work as an actual team instead of two people who are both doing exact same things at exact same times. That's an extremely inefficient way to heal anything.

[Lemuria]

Doesn't the new one do that as well?

I retract that part of my argument then. I still maintain that having it as a class skill is better so as not to use up role slots for MP regeneration (something which we all had a version of anyway, so what the heck?).

you need to work as an actual team instead of two people who are both doing exact same things at exact same times. That's an extremely inefficient way to heal anything.

So is inflexibility. There's a difference between not using Esuna and not actually needing it. If the other WHM goes down for some reason and someone needs to take over their duties temporarily, that includes being able to remove debuffs.

It's folly to think it's any kind of benefit to lose a strong skill just for the sake of 'streamlining' our skill set.

[Blazinhart]

I have no problem with the role skills. Mine Will be Protect, Esuna, Lucid Dreaming, Swiftcast and Largesse. I don't see the other skills being mandatory. So no complains from me. Looking forward to enjoy Stormblood

[Ootarion]

To both Aramina and Taika

To Aramina: Yes, I havent done end game raids, admittingly the only raid I recall doing so far is Crystal Tower. But having played this game from lvl 1 to 60 as two different healer classes, I know I have a firm grasp on how to play one, but to be fair, I wasnt saying that what Taika does in end game raids is wrong, I was just simply saying that it seemed like he was saying one healer does more healer related things then the other.

To Taika: Before we go back to the original topic, I just want to say that while I understand what you are saying here, I at the same time cannot help but feel that it is causing troubles, I mean, sure, as healers we can DPS, but DPSing is not our job, rather it is not what we are supposed to be doing as Healers. If it is working for you and your co healer then alright, but I wouldnt be content letting one person hold the burden of Healing and Debuffing while I just did DPS, that wouldnt sit well with me Id feel id be doing less work then the other guy. So Im not trying to insult you cause again if it is working for you then that is fine. But having healed with a co healer on MANY occasions, me and my co healer even if it was a random, have apparently had a 6th sense or something, cause Ive never had to delegate in the manner you do, if only you could heal with me, cause I got people wishing I was in their Raid groups, clearly I am doing something right.

Either way back to the original topic. Skills like Esuna as well as Exalted Detriment and Leeches, as well as Saints Shroud and Luminiferous Aether, should not be reduced to Cross Role skills, these skills are just to important and if you lop them in with 10 different skills where you can only equip at best 5 of those 10, its just gonna cause complications. Furthermore we cannot always expect that people will remember to swap their equipped Cross Role skills around. I mean, lets look at the Cross Role Skills

Cleric Stance ~changed~: Rather then being an ability that swaps out healing power for damage it is now simply a damage buff that lasts 15 seconds (due to the Mind Stat now increasing Healing Power and Attack Magic damage)

Protect: Everyone knows what this does

Lucid Dreaming: MP Regen and reduces built up Enmity by half

Eye for an Eye: Admittingly Ive never used this very much but I can see where it would be helpful

Surecast: Never really needed it but not being interrupted mid cast is nice.

Rescue: Pull a target party member to you.

Largesse: Basically Divine Seal except all healers get it and raises healing potency by 20%

Swiftcast: Again, we all know what this does.

Esuna: Most if not all people know that this removes most Debuffs and most DoTs (since some debuffs and dots cant actually be removed.)

Break: Deals weak damage but inflicts a 40% slow for 20 seconds

The purpose of me making this list though is not to show what the Cross Role skills are, but to emphasize a point. Look at how many useful skills are on here, Esuna, Protect, Largesse, Swiftcast, I can promise you that I would never go anywhere without these four particular skills, and that would leave me with but one empty slot to chose something as a quality of life and that would likely be Lucid Dreaming, meaning that all the important skills I have NOW before SB, I'll just get once SB starts and ill never likely use any of the others.

1) Rescue doesnt seem all that important cause why use it? If you are standing in an AoE or an attack that is about to go off, you need to move and not sit there and continue doing what you are doing. Plus I can see people trolling with Rescue.

2) Break will likely never see use unless you need a slow for some reason but WHMs have Stone which has a built in slow at early levels and it seems that in SB they are removing Astrologian's Stella which is a Slow, but im not actually upset by this because I rarely used Stella anyways but liked having it as a slow that was part of my class.

3) Cleric Stance Im likely to never use because I only use it now to trade off my healing to do damage, but since SB is changing this to where Healer Damage and Healing scales off Mind at the same time, I see no point in having it for a 5% damage buff when so many other Healer Cross Roles are much more critical.

4) Eye for an Eye Ive barely seen it used and dont really plan on using it myself consistently enough to even care about it.

5) And Surecast? Ive never had to use this and never even really needed it, granted I see where it is useful, but to me it is by no means critical to do my job, cause if the tank is doing their job, I shouldnt get interrupted ever.

So this means that the only important, critical skills (at least to me) that will take up the 5 Cross Role slots are Protect, Esuna, Lucid Dreaming, Swiftcast and Largesse and the reason I disprove of this, is because all these skills except for Swiftcast and Protect, were in someway built into the Healers, IE WHM had Saints Shroud and Divine Seal, Astrologian had Synastry which raised healing by 20% and bonded them to a target which when you heal someone else, 40% of the ASTs healing goes to the target you are bonded with, and ASTs had Luminiferous Aether which is their version of Saints Shroud it just didnt reduce Enmity. But WHM had to Cross Class Swiftcast while AST and SCH had to cross class both Protect, Swiftcast AND Cleric Stance.

Long story short, in my eyes, and evidently the eyes of others, this isnt helping anything at all. Cause the important skills that used to be built into the Healers, are now Cross Role skills they have to equip to use as if they were swiftcast.