About Esuna, Exalted Detriment and Leeches change

[Nyghtmarerobu]

the main reason for it to become a role skill was to help with button bloat. Why have 3 buttons that do the same thing, when you can drop it into a pool of skills for all healers and make 1 button do the same thing? Its not about meaningful choices or any of the other bologna that the thread is talking about. It makes sence, and I applaud SE for doing the change. People act like healers had crazy choices for cross-class skills as it was, and none of them you're losing besides Virus.. and even that is just being moved around to another role.

[Fawkes]

the main reason for it to become a role skill was to help with button bloat. Why have 3 buttons that do the same thing, when you can drop it into a pool of skills for all healers and make 1 button do the same thing? Its not about meaningful choices or any of the other bologna that the thread is talking about. It makes sence, and I applaud SE for doing the change. People act like healers had crazy choices for cross-class skills as it was, and none of them you're losing besides Virus.. and even that is just being moved around to another role.

You don't have Esuna, Leeches, and Exalted Detriment on the same hotbar, they are used by different jobs. Combining them does nothing for button bloat. I already have all three in the same hotbar position for muscle memory reasons. I'm not going to gain any hotbar space because I'm never going to move esuna from that spot, even if I do happen to unequip it it'll just be there but grayed out.

[Gemina]

You don't have Esuna, Leeches, and Exalted Detriment on the same hotbar, they are used by different jobs. Combining them does nothing for button bloat. I already have all three in the same hotbar position for muscle memory reasons. I'm not going to gain any hotbar space because I'm never going to move esuna from that spot, even if I do happen to unequip it it'll just be there but grayed out.

This^

It doesn't reduce button bloat. It reduces the number of options a healer gets to choose from for their role slots, and similar to what Fawkes stated, it is doubtful anyone will modify their hotbars due to muscle memory. Especially controller users, which is the reason why button bloat is a concern in the first place.

Consolidating tier skills like stone 1-4 makes sense because all the skills belong to one job. This DOES reduce button bloat. Consolidating the same skill that belongs to different jobs does the exact opposite.

[Fernosaur]

You don't have Esuna, Leeches, and Exalted Detriment on the same hotbar, they are used by different jobs. Combining them does nothing for button bloat. I already have all three in the same hotbar position for muscle memory reasons. I'm not going to gain any hotbar space because I'm never going to move esuna from that spot, even if I do happen to unequip it it'll just be there but grayed out.

It does reduce button bloat, since if you go into a fight that doesn't need Esuna at all, you can instead change that skill in your hotbar to the other Role Skill you're bringing. If you decide not to use the same slot in your hotbars and leave Esuna greyed out, then that's your choice and yours alone. Other players might just change it and have one button freed up.

And about the need to change your role skills per instance... SCHs already do this by weaving Blizzard II for dungeons and Stoneskin/something else for important or more difficult raids.

I don't see why there are so many healers up in arms about this...

If you weren't forced to take Esuna, what would you take in its stead? It's not like the skills are super varied and important in general:

We have Swiftcast, Protect (debatable), Esuna, Lucid Dreaming and Cleric Stance/Largesse as a good set for any kind of Duty Finder run. The rest (E4E, Break, Surecast and Rescue) are mostly situational to be considered universal Duty Finder picks, and will likely only see use in more controlled environments in which you can communicate much more with the other healer. A special case can be made about E4E for Scholars because of how it interacts with Deployment Tactics, and even then, a deployed E4E is hardly ever worth it in dungeons because it's only activated by physical attacks. which only the tank will ever get.

After the change to Cleric Stance, I'd say neither E4E or Largesse are even necessary at all for any dungeon. The only reason I'd ever use E4E or the healing buff skills was to buff Regen or Asp Benefic so that I could be in Cleric Stance for much longer, but with the ability to freely weave in instant abilities or heals in-between DPSing, and how the changes affect skills like Assize, Earthly Star and Excogitation, Largesse is largely pointless for dungeons. I have yet to see a dungeon in which the healing potency buff is absolutely necessary to clear it. Same thing goes for 24-man raids, really. The only times I have absolutely needed the healing+ buff in 24-mans have been when the other healer either DCs or spends the entire fight dead and I end up solo healing things like Forgall's Hell Wind or Scatach's ultimate.

Also, if you don't DPS as a healer and are worried about needing Largesse or E4E, then lol.

[Fawkes]

If you decide not to use the same slot in your hotbars and leave Esuna greyed out, then that's your choice and yours alone. Other players might just change it and have one button freed up.

It's similar to how PvP was, which they are fixing, everyone could have just made macros to swap their PvP skills in and out of their hotbar, but few people ever did. Now PvP has it's own hotbar so people don't have to swap, and the people who didn't swap are no longer automatically gimped by not having as many skills as those that did.

[Furious]

It does reduce button bloat, since if you go into a fight that doesn't need Esuna at all, you can instead change that skill in your hotbar to the other Role Skill you're bringing. If you decide not to use the same slot in your hotbars and leave Esuna greyed out, then that's your choice and yours alone. Other players might just change it and have one button freed up.

And about the need to change your role skills per instance... SCHs already do this by weaving Blizzard II for dungeons and Stoneskin/something else for important or more difficult raids.

Button bloat relates to abilities that are not used, or are used in very small niches. Status removal is used all the time. Ergo: Status removal is not button bloat. Frankly, whether or not it is possible to run without status removal, making it optional to me is a watering down of the role. Removing statuses is just something that healers do; only now, they mightn't because reasons.

[Ootarion]

Button bloat relates to abilities that are not used, or are used in very small niches. Status removal is used all the time. Ergo: Status removal is not button bloat. Frankly, whether or not it is possible to run without status removal, making it optional to me is a watering down of the role. Removing statuses is just something that healers do; only now, they mightn't because reasons.

This is actually very true of you Furious, there are some Healers out there who might not use status removers simply because reasons.

I mean imagine a Healer who has their own playstyle that involves never having Esuna equipped, they have the freedom and right to do this because the system is now allowing them to not have it, ever. People may think this is a blessing but it will more then likely be a curse. Because the Healer has the right and freedom to refuse to have it as part of their preferred kit, and no one would be able to have justifiable reasons to chew them out or be upset because the Healer is just doing what the game is now permitting them to do. If the Status Removers were core built into the Healers then that would be another matter cause they would have access to it regardless because its in their core kit, and not in the Cross Role.

[Phixx]

Button bloat relates to abilities that are not used, or are used in very small niches. Status removal is used all the time. Ergo: Status removal is not button bloat. Frankly, whether or not it is possible to run without status removal, making it optional to me is a watering down of the role. Removing statuses is just something that healers do; only now, they mightn't because reasons.

Well now it is a healer role ability.
With the change from cross class to role abilities SE has to put some abilities in that selection that are considered "necessary" for that role.
With the removal of cross class they can't have Protect be a WHM only spell, and adding it to all the healers increases the number of buttons; Esuna is meeting a similar fate because it is random for a dungeon or boss to actually require a dispel and you can now choose if you need it or not. Don't want to have to "worry about possibly needing it" or you feel like it is "used all the time" then take it. This is just another iteration or cross class which is already inflexible. Are the new Role Abilities perfect? No, but complaining about how you have little to no choice when the current model doesn't have them either is whining just to whine.

Ex. I need Esuna for Baelsar's Wall, I however won't touch the button in Sohr Kai (Hard), I however will still take it if I am doing Expert Roulette.

[Ootarion]

Well now it is a healer role ability.
With the change from cross class to role abilities SE has to put some abilities in that selection that are considered "necessary" for that role.
With the removal of cross class they can't have Protect be a WHM only spell, and adding it to all the healers increases the number of buttons; Esuna is meeting a similar fate because it is random for a dungeon or boss to actually require a dispel and you can now choose if you need it or not. Don't want to have to "worry about possibly needing it" or you feel like it is "used all the time" then take it. This is just another iteration or cross class which is already inflexible. Are the new Role Abilities perfect? No, but complaining about how you have little to no choice when the current model doesn't have them either is whining just to whine.

Ex. I need Esuna for Baelsar's Wall, I however won't touch the button in Sohr Kai (Hard), I however will still take it if I am doing Expert Roulette.

How do you justify the fact that Shroud of Saints and Luminiferous Aether (which are MP refreshers of equal MP restoration) from White Mage and Astrologian? These are built into the classes and are now being shoved into the Cross Role as Lucid Dreaming.....I can see if this is to help SCH but Ive never seen a Scholar have MP troubles and even if they did, its hardly a reason to rob WHM and AST of something built into them. SE can just as easily program the Cross Role to have Lucid Dreaming show up ONLY for SCH while WHM and AST get to keep the ones they already have built into them. Yes this would mean that WHM and AST would only have 9 Cross Role abilities, but who cares, it doesnt need to be symmetrical and you can bet SEs entire reason for combining Shroud of Saints and Luminiferous Aether into the Cross Role Lucid Dreaming and combining Esuna, Exalted Detriment and Leeches into the Cross Role Esuna, was just to make sure ALL the Healers had a Healer Cross Role menu that had 10 different abilities for the sake of an unnecessary symmetry -.-

[Phixx]

Manas

Well (as far as we know) they are nerfing Aetherflow mana regen to 10%, which will be the same as WHM gets from Assize. So now there is the chance that ALL the healers will need it and so they are relegating it to the Healer Role Abilities.

You keep ignoring the fact that these abilities can help ALL the healers do their job, that is why SE is creating a system that allows them all to access them. The healer can then pick and choose what they believe to be necessary to complete the content they are intending to do. If they were to individualize them based on job, what is even the point of the system?

Edit: I would like to point out that these are also not direct healing spells, but utility abilities.