Victimize recast and Simian Thrash

[Physic]

Actually, it stops you from using weaponskills and I believe it has a 30sec recast. The only way you can make it stop the target from using weaponskills is by using it in conjunction with Contagion - THM's 50 Ability.

Anyway, it does suck that Victimize is on a 60sec cooldown now. I don't even have Simian equipped for Ifrit but that doesn't make it useless... it makes it situational. I still get it off fairly easily in both the Ixali and Amaljaa strongholds. Kobolds are jerks and blah.

I haven't used PGL vs Ogre since 1.19 but as far as Ifrit goes I pretty much get TP w/o Pummel/Flurry -> Keen Flurry + Victimize II -> Invigorate + Pummel/Flurry -> Buff Victimize II (breaking horns woo) and then alternate Concussive Blow II + Follow-Through. No, the skills aren't outdamaging Lancer but I'm not there to out DD the Lancer. And once he starts jumping around and spamming constantly I don't even bother with CBII anymore since Follow-Through does more damage.

It's more of a balance issue than anything. The way stats work now, if Victimize II still had it's 10sec recast it'd be broken. If Simian Thrash could be used freely... Keen Flurry -> Simian Thrash would be broken. If they lowered the damage of ST in order to "balance" letting you use it without the evade requirement, you probably wouldn't want to use it at all anymore (but being able to break the left horn freely WOULD be fun).

except marauder and lancer both have complete access to their second 2 weaponskills. I think simian should remain on dodge, but i think they need to add some new skill that is strong and spammable. maybe they should make simian have a mp check when not used on evade, 70 mp for non evade simian maybe. or increased cost.

[KRose]

Marauder and Lancer also both had one of their more useful weaponskills (Maim and Twisting Vice respectively) put on a 1min recast. I realize that they both still have weaponskills that are potent, in this case Storm's Path and Doomspike II while the one we got put as 1min is actually our spike hit but yeah. If you're gonna compare it like that, Archer never even had a spike weaponskill so they're almost stuck in the same boat... and that class actually is a full-blown dps. I don't get the whole like: Well MRD and LNC have a spammable ws so we should have one too! Follow-Through is 44. If they buffed that - congratulations. Pugilist has a spammable, potent weaponskill. It'd probably be better if they buffed that and made it PGL only than it would be for them to be like "WELL PGL NEEDS A NEW WEAPONSKILL. HERE YOU GO." And have it do silly damage just because.

Anyway I think at some point someone said that there was an attack similar to Simian in the .dat that was supposed to be used when Pugilist was in an "attack" stance? Maybe we'll see that with Monk. Increased cost of what though? It takes all your TP as is unless you mean you have to have like 2k just to execute it in order to use it freely. That actually doesn't sound like such a bad idea.

[Physic]

Marauder and Lancer also both had one of their more useful weaponskills (Maim and Twisting Vice respectively) put on a 1min recast. I realize that they both still have weaponskills that are potent, in this case Storm's Path and Doomspike II while the one we got put as 1min is actually our spike hit but yeah. If you're gonna compare it like that, Archer never even had a spike weaponskill so they're almost stuck in the same boat... and that class actually is a full-blown dps. I don't get the whole like: Well MRD and LNC have a spammable ws so we should have one too! Follow-Through is 44. If they buffed that - congratulations. Pugilist has a spammable, potent weaponskill. It'd probably be better if they buffed that and made it PGL only than it would be for them to be like "WELL PGL NEEDS A NEW WEAPONSKILL. HERE YOU GO." And have it do silly damage just because.

Anyway I think at some point someone said that there was an attack similar to Simian in the .dat that was supposed to be used when Pugilist was in an "attack" stance? Maybe we'll see that with Monk. Increased cost of what though? It takes all your TP as is unless you mean you have to have like 2k just to execute it in order to use it freely. That actually doesn't sound like such a bad idea.

thing is archer is gearing up to be a buff or CC class, and pugilist has to be right next to an enemy to dps, even more so than lancer.

i mean think about it really, dex is no longer effecting critical chance, everyone has same base evasion per level, pugilist has no unique gear or high ev/def gear.

In all honesty pug is stuck in an awkward phase, our current synergies are very out of wack. I enjoy countering, but if we never get hate, or cant handle hate we get, whats the point?

so yeah its a bit of an issue, but honestly it makes too much sense that pugilist has a powerful on evasion skill.

by increase cost i mean, any means of associating a cost with it, so it doesnt make its on evasion feature useless,
some examples
mp cost
increased timer
increased tp cost
when not used in evasion, thus you get the added benefit when used in counter, but pugilist has some skill that is powerful that it can use whenever it can get the tp, rather then when tanking, since apparently we arent going to be given the gear or skills to tank effeciently.

as far as the attack stance skill, yeaaaa that could be the answer, but i doubt they ll give pugilist or any other dow new skills till the cap raise. They may put it on Monk, but ultimately that wont exactly solve the pugilist issue.

[grandm]

provoke / featherfoot. then when you evade you can smack em in the mouth for big damage, after that ur tank can take back over.

[Vackashken]

provoke / featherfoot. then when you evade you can smack em in the mouth for big damage, after that ur tank can take back over.

No... just, no.

[grandm]

No... just, no.

thank you for your helpful feedback on why that is a bad idea.

[KRose]

provoke / featherfoot. then when you evade you can smack em in the mouth for big damage, after that ur tank can take back over.

Typically it'd be Taunt that you'd use since it forces you to tank temporarily. There's technically nothing wrong with that method but it's one of those things that works well on paper and not so well in practice. Featherfoot I & II aren't 100% Evades so you might be taunting just to get smacked, or simply might not even get the chance to evade before Taunt wears off and it goes back to attacking the tank since it only lasts a couple seconds. It isn't viable for Haymaker/Jarring Strike but you can mess around with it for Simian Thrash.

thing is archer is gearing up to be a buff or CC class, and pugilist has to be right next to an enemy to dps, even more so than lancer.

Thing is, none of us know what Pugilist is gearing up to be. As you stated, any +evasion gear Pugilist gets at the moment can actually be worn by any of the DoW so there's no real unique aspect to it. I don't know how you're geared, how you play or your skillsets or anything but if I pull hate in strongholds (which happens fairly frequently actually) I can quite easily hold my own until it dies or the tank gets hate. It's not like Pugilist really has any strong AoE attacks so I'm almost always picking something off with Victimize II and countering it down.
Now I haven't even bothered trying to tank any of the stronghold mobs. If you wanted to gear to tank you could. It's not like another DD is gonna equip Sipahi Shirt and things like that just because they can too. I've wanted to mess around with it but I haven't done a lot of key-farming at this point... just spiritbonding.

by increase cost i mean, any means of associating a cost with it, so it doesnt make its on evasion feature useless,
some examples
mp cost
increased timer
increased tp cost
when not used in evasion, thus you get the added benefit when used in counter, but pugilist has some skill that is powerful that it can use whenever it can get the tp, rather then when tanking, since apparently we arent going to be given the gear or skills to tank effeciently.

We have no idea what kind of skills we're going to get until 1.20 rolls in with the whole adjustment thing. It does feel like PGL kind of got the short end of the stick gear wise but hopefully that's addressed too. But if they make it so you don't nee to evade to use Simian Thrash, I wouldn't expect it to be as powerful as it is right now.

[Vackashken]

If you taunt during a long and complicated fight you will screw up the flow of it. Its really a bad idea.

[Meleena]

You cant taunt on ifrit.
He uses aoe frontal attacks that are hard to evade even with featherfoot up.
So if he turns to you, not only your chances to evade his attacks are VERY slim, but you will automaticaly damage the other 4 DD that are fighting at Ifrit's back together with you...
You don't play with stuff like this.

Also today I had the chance to parse my ifrit fights.
With Keen Flurry and Victimize II I managed to outdamage my fellow Lancers and marauder.
That doesnt necessarily mean that Pug is stronger but at least he isn't usless damage-wise.
Our problem lies with deffensive gear, Lancers and Marauders are better because of their better defence.

[Firon]

You cant taunt on ifrit.
He uses aoe frontal attacks that are hard to evade even with featherfoot up.
So if he turns to you, not only your chances to evade his attacks are VERY slim, but you will automaticaly damage the other 4 DD that are fighting at Ifrit's back together with you...
You don't play with stuff like this.

Also today I had the chance to parse my ifrit fights.
With Keen Flurry and Victimize II I managed to outdamage my fellow Lancers and marauder.
That doesnt necessarily mean that Pug is stronger but at least he isn't usless damage-wise.
Our problem lies with deffensive gear, Lancers and Marauders are better because of their better defence.

I would totaly acept the 60 sec cool down if we did not need help from mages to further boost dmg from victimize. The evade on Simain thrash still makes no sense to me is SE trying to tell me that long ass combo is a counter?