#DeleteSmn aka "Here's where you can shove your Bahamut" thread

[Khaoticsuccubus]

Well being that you have to level Arcanist in order to even become a Summoner...

Obviously nerfing all the old Arcanist stuff it takes to get there... makes it pretty tough to even become a Summoner in the first place.

But I digress, there's more than just that. We also have to be level synced for things... and now throw out all that "good" stuff at level 70... and replace it with all the stuff that is nerfed... (or was removed)

And surprise... what do you think happens?

The job will be absolute hell to play at anything other than level 70.

Isn't this the case already lol. SE design on when classes/jobs get certain abilities while leveling is and has been absolutely horrid from the start. Some classes more than others are either a giant pain in the arse or are an absolute borefest while leveling/synced.

They hold off key class identity and game changing abilities and traits to levels waaaaay into the game, giving one no time to practice or get used to some of these till practically max level lol. For example, till stormblood paladin was the only tank to not have access to a tank stance till 10 levels after the others.

Or BLM, did we really need Leylines and Sharpcast so early into HW? Would it not have made more sense to pace their abilities with Enochian first, followed by fire 4 to start incorporating it as your main source of dmg instead of fire 1, then blizzard 4 to help you keep the enochian buff going so you can spam more fire 4's. Finally, leylines and sharpcast for the QoL they provide in helping you spam your new rotation.

[Mature]

Any data on ifrit and titan at all?

[LunarEmerald]

If only one of those changes could be the change from a book to a cute primal dolls to cuddle...

The Lulu job.

[Silverquick]

Being a little over dramatic are we. Non-raid content doesn't exactly require a high skill level, or even full utilization of skill sets available.

Nope... not at all...

Try running an Arcanist with nerfed DoTs which is literally ALL your damage... or in dungeons with BANE that doesn't work.... and Blizzard 2 has been removed... Heck I'm hard pressed to say even 50th level at SMN will be somehow work out at all. That's ALL before you get your good stuff like Painflare, DWT, (Nerfed) Tri-Disaster, Deathflare, or the new Nerfed Ruin 3 which was pretty good prior to the nerf... let alone the level 70 stuff.

Ruin 1 didn't change any... and Ruin 2 only went up by 20 potency but lost the Blind component.

You no longer have Sustain to heal your pet when soloing in FATEs.

Literally this guts the Arcanist... and makes leveling ultra slow. Let alone completely hoses up SCH. Nevermind the major DPS hit on the SMN too.

Yeah you it didn't just mega nerf the SMN... it literally crushed the whole path up the chain.

[Nihility]

Yeah and that along with reading Hai Hais lil analysis is something i'm processing now, it seems fairly sound. I still will say I am partially not 100% on Fester's text being incorrect, given there is still info and variables like weights and gear that i feel are not being taken into account, that will have to be found out during launch, but i'm not going to get into that again. I'm just going to wait it out now and burn out during EA under the guise that 200 is the new 300.

it's not something that really takes much thought. They show painflare and fester right next to each other in a video and fester does more.
also it doesn't make any sense at all to have 2 skills with the same cooldowns and resource cost and the only difference is one is aoe
also 150/300 makes more sense than 150/200 and 2 is right next to 3 on the keyboard

[Fyce]

Yeah you it didn't just mega nerf the SMN... it literally crushed the whole path up the chain.

You can call it a "nerf" only by comparing the current SMN to the Stormblood SMN. But you can't tell what will the position of SMN be in Stormblood as you don't know what the overall job balance will be, and what kind of fights we get.

So saying that SMN is dead is completly baseless. So stop crying. You're not a WHM.

[Selova]

If we wanted a single target caster we'd just go play black mage. Summoner was more of an aoe job(especially in HW since they buffed bane). I thought they were just going to declutter jobs, not try to homogenize them all into the same thing.

Except that summoner isn't supposed to be a aoe centric caster or a dot mage. They are summoners. Most if not all of their damage should be through the creatures they summon which is what it looks like they are trying to achieve with the new demi-bahamut mechanic.


Also, FFXIV jobs aren't even close to being homogenized. You still have classes/jobs that bring unique buffs to a group setting. There is a big difference between homogenization and streamlining job abilities to become more fluid and synergistic. All in all I think summoner will be fine, all these knee-jerk reactions when we don't have all the numbers and data at 70 available is getting ridiculous.

[Khanscott]

From what I can see, S-E just added 30 seconds to EX roulettes for SMN players. These nerfs from what I can see at this point only really affect the endgame crowd. But Im taking the wait and see approach, as others in this thread have opted to do. Not like they won't balance things after the raid crowd has their tangents come End of Time when issues will become noticable very quickly.

[Silverquick]

Except that summoner isn't supposed to be a aoe centric caster or a dot mage. They are summoners. Most if not all of their damage should be through the creatures they summon which is what it looks like they are trying to achieve with the new demi-bahamut mechanic.

That's all great...

Except for the fact they START as Arcanists... not Summoners...

Summoner is what you learn LATER... after you find out about it and become one... It didn't mean you suddenly and mysteriously forgot all the the things you learned as an Arcanist.

But that's beside the point... you can't expect to totally nerf and remove arcanist from the job... and suddenly expect balance... or viability.

[KarahaBaruha]

If you're still worried about Summoner, give this a read. http://docs.google.com/document/d/1J...1thqLy3yO2N9A/

Bane was the only real nerf to the job. 4.0 bane is still better than 2.0 bane though

The information about the dots is wrong. I corrected it on Reddit.

"You can't compare our old dots vs our new dots like you did. You're comparing total potencies over different durations and then giving an apples to apples comparison. This is more accurate:

Old Dots

Bio - 18s duration 40 potency Bio II - 30s duration 35 potency Miasma - 24s duration 35 potency (20 cast potency)

New Dots

Bio III - 30s duration 40 potency Miasma III - 30s duration 40 potency (50 cast potency)

Now, the only way to compare these is to when the cast times all line up. This will happen at 360 seconds since it's the lowest duration divisible by 18, 24, and 30 seconds. Let's compare the old dots and then adjust to compare vs your numbers over one cycle of our new dots (the 850 potency)

Bio - 360s/18s = 20 casts 360s/3s (1 tic) = 120 tics (120 tics x 40 potency) = 4800 potency per 360s

Bio II - 360s/30s = 12 casts Tics are same (120 tics x 35 potency) = 4200 potency per 360s

Miasma - 360s/24s = 15 casts Tics are same (120 tics x 35 potency) = 4200 dot pot per 360s (15 casts x 20 potency) = 300 cast pot per 360s 4200 dot pot + 300 cast pot = 4500 total potency per 360s

4800 + 4500 + 4200 = 13,500 potency per 360s 20 + 15 + 12 = 47 total casts

Now, let's compare to the 850 potency you quoted from one cast rotation of our new dots

Our new dots = 30 seconds per cast

360 seconds / 30 seconds = 12

13,500 potency / 12 = 1,125 potency

So our new dots give us 850 potency during the same amount of time our old dots gave us 1,125 potency. This is a loss of 275 potency every 30 seconds and not the 40 potency you listed.

Now let's look at casts over a 60 second duration as you did.

New dots = 2 per 30 seconds or 4 per 60 seconds

Old dots = 47 per 360 seconds 360s/60s = 6 47/6 = 7.83 casts Now, since you can't do a fraction of a cast I'll round up to 8 casts

So, now you save approximately 4 casts every 60s

Let's fill the 4 gcds in with Ruin II since that's what is most frequently going to be used outside of DWT since it's now more potent than Ruin.

Ruin II - 100 potency 100 potency x 4 gcds = 400 potency added because of freed up gcds

Over that same 60s we are losing 550 potency from our old dots (275 potency per 30s x 2)

Thus we are still losing potency from our new dots even when replacing the freed up gcds with Ruin II. We would need to replace 3 gcds with Ruin III (150 potency) and one with Ruin II just to break even. This however won't be the case considering our Aetherflow was nerfed to be 10% mana retuned and Ruin III is a very Mp costly spell.

But, how about getting Ruin IV procs to make up the deficit. Well, we would need to get at the minimum 2 procs per minute to make up the loss. This may be plausible, but we will have to see"