The trade offs of the new SMN

[CecMiller]

I'm looking forward to the SMN changes, but I do have to question some decision making. Making Fester 200 potency and painflare also 200 potency means there is no decision to be made. Painflare is objectively better as it has the advantage of hitting multiple targets whilst dealing the same potency and having no setup required to cast it. Fester requires dots to be on the target for it to even deal damage and it can deal less than 200 potency if you somehow only have 1 dot up (100 potency) or comically - none (RIP AA stacks). I'm certain that the team will look over the numbers for the potencys of the spells and fix any translation errors in the tooltips as I'm certain fester shouldn't be objectively worse than painflare but reducing the potency on ruin 3 by 25% and making ruin 4 a proc didn't make me very happy either. Bahamut is cool tho, lets not lie.

That said, I am looking forward to see how our single target damage shapes up. Bane was mostly used in dungeons for AOE for me and so the nerf hurts the dungeon clear times. For raids, I've used it on the second set off adds in A9S and spreading the dots from Faust onto refurbisher when his defence buff was up. In A11S it was possible to bane dots from cruise chaser onto 2 lapis and A12S I never even used it (with the 8 adds exploding within seconds). So all in all, its not a MASSIVE loss for the current raid tier. I think when they said they wanted to reduce the discrepancy between top dps players and the average player, they intended for an effect that these current summoner changes will have. I can't hide the fact that I'm disappointed in some of the changes however. For me, it feels like we will be seeing the same meta as we've had in 3.4 and not a single caster making the line up. Its worth keeping in mind that since we only need to keep up 2 dots, that frees up a GCD for a ruin/ruin2/ruin 3 which has a chance to turn into ruin 4. Personally, I don't get the potency nerfs for Ruin 3. I just don't see why it was needed as I believe summoners were in the middle of the pack single target damage wise (tho I don't have any proof of this). I will also miss contagion for longer dots D: But hey, at least we still have Tri-Bind!

As a side note: I propose we make a formal petition to SE to re-name Tri-Disaster to Bi-Disaster. In 5.0, given the current trend of reducing the number of dots, the spell should be aptly named Disaster.

[Lambdafish]

I am not invalidating his opinion. You selectively chose to quote a part of my post. I just made it clear that the new aspects/changes to the job will be welcome in raiding environments, particularly savage/ex content. If he thinks those are detrimental to "raiding" (normal, etc), well that's up to him.

Have fun beating that straw man.

Its not a straw man because I specifically didn't disagree with your opinion, nor did I invalidate it, I just don't like people pulling up FFLogs like it is some sort of test as to whether you know enough about a job to comment on it.

Oh and I didn't selectively quote you, your entire quote was:

I looked you up on fflogs and couldn't find you anywhere.

I am referring specifically to savage raids/ex primals. The buffs and additions to SMN will be very welcome there.

In which you A) brought up FFLogs like it had any relevance to the discussion, then B) reiterated the content you were talking about, which Silverquick already clarified ("Actually no... its a serious problem for Raiding... ") in his post. I didn't pick and choose what to quote, and as I'll reiterate, either of you could be right, just don't throw FFLogs around like it has any sort of meaning in your argument.

Anyway, I spent too long on this response, so I will sit back and return to watching the debate.

[MOthe]

People need to stop riding the roller coaster when it comes to nerfs and buffs. Keep in mind that the AoE damage falloff was applied to most AoEs across the board and is therefore not JUST a SMN nerf.

Not a 80% damage reduction. Classes that are affected by falloff damage have a limit of 50% reduction.

[Nerisu]

.....and then tell me what happens to your DWT, Ruin 3 spam, and Deathflare when they go invulnerable or the mechanics phase starts?

Part of learning a fight is to know when to go into trance so you don't waste it when the boss becomes invulnerable. It will become easier to hold it off too with the removal of the Aethertrail Attunement buff timer.

[ShaolinMike]

Not a 80% damage reduction. Classes that are affected by falloff damage have a limit of 50% reduction.

If there wasn't a significant falloff, everything would be dead by the time we got to our second Deathflare. Then who would Bahamut play with?

[Vallhallix]

Not a 80% damage reduction. Classes that are affected by falloff damage have a limit of 50% reduction.

This, I don't think any other class has an 80% damage falloff but SMN, not even BLMs new AoE. I mean what exactly was the point? it's damage over time, falloff damage for damage over time is just pointless, why even use bane now as opposed to your other AoE's. In the time it takes to bane most of the other classes with stronger AoE's would have reduced the targets to half health by then, best to just jump right into your heavy hitters. Rip bane.

[Fernosaur]

Could anyone tell me what the changes to Contagion are? I haven't found pet action tooltips anywhere D:

This, I don't think any other class has an 80% damage fallout but SMN.

SCH does now too :'). It's also SCH's only AoE now, lmfao.

At least I think SMN's AoE won't be massively affected, since it is plausible to use three Painflares in one trash pull now to enter Dreadwyrm. Or PF > Bane > PF. The appearance of Bahamut every other trash pull is definitely gonna be a great boost too, plus using Devotion to help out other party members.

[Silverquick]

You do know that while raiding you have to manage/optimize cooldown utilization, right?

That process entails learning the fight, including but not limited to the boss' skills/attacks, stages/phases in the fight, as well as being aware of how good or bad your dps output is so you can anticipate/prepare for particular phases/transitions.

The way you describe it you make it sound like raiding is hitting a Dummy that will always be there for you to hit it while dismissing transitions/phases and proper CD management --the very basics of raiding!

Yes... basically what these changes mean...

Is that you will be doing crap damage... or nerfed damage while saving your DWT bonus damage for that single moment you CAN do it...

Rather than... how we do it now, from any time or any position, un-nerfed...

And.... it hasn't occurred to you your mean DPS will drop like a stone?

[ShaolinMike]

Could anyone tell me what the changes to Contagion are? I haven't found pet action tooltips anywhere D:



SCH does now too :'). It's also SCH's only AoE now, lmfao.

At least I think SMN's AoE won't be massively affected, since it is plausible to use three Painflares in one trash pull now to enter Dreadwyrm. Or PF > Bane > PF. The appearance of Bahamut every other trash pull is definitely gonna be a great boost too, plus using Devotion to help out other party members.

Contagion is RIP. Pets now get Devotion: increases the potency of all attack and healing magic for all party members within a 30-yalm radius by 5%. It also reduces the damage taken by those affected by 5%.

[ShaolinMike]

Yes... basically what these changes mean...

Is that you will be doing crap damage... or nerfed damage while saving your DWT bonus damage for that single moment you CAN do it...

Rather than... how we do it now, from any time or any position, un-nerfed...

And.... it hasn't occurred to you your mean DPS will drop like a stone?

The only real difference is that we have one less DoT that will be ticking. Ruin potencies will be brought back up to par due to Ruination from Tri-Disaster. Also note that the time needed for us to do an entire rotation (casting initial DoTs > second Akh Morn) is going to be fairly short.