Please do something about mentor roulette instant-leaves

[Mavrias]

Ah I see, you rather other people provide tips and advice in your place, because at the end of the day, you're a bad mentor?.

I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying. I explain mechanics if they are requested. If they're not requested and we wipe then I will explain after the first wipe. On content first day of patch/ expansion, no one gets shit explained to them. It's fine. That's how we learn dungeons; by doing them. I don't refuse anything unless someone is being a jackass about it. Stop making assumptions.

My point was that explaining mechanics does not mean you are mentoring. But my job as a mentor is primarily to provide help when requested. Not spew a bunch of unnecessary, unrequested shit at some poor green leaf. And what makes you think I've ever blamed a new player for not immediately knowing what to do? You can't call me a bad anything because you've never even met me before.

[Jetstream_Fox]

I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying. I explain mechanics if they are requested. If they're not requested and we wipe then I will explain after the first wipe. On content first day of patch/ expansion, no one gets shit explained to them. It's fine. That's how we learn dungeons; by doing them. I don't refuse anything unless someone is being a jackass about it. Stop making assumptions.

My point was that explaining mechanics does not mean you are mentoring. But my job as a mentor is primarily to provide help when requested. Not spew a bunch of unnecessary, unrequested shit at some poor green leaf. And what makes you think I've ever blamed a new player for not immediately knowing what to do? You can't call me a bad anything because you've never even met me before.

Someone sounds triggered.

Your exact words state you won't do it unless everyone wiped, or you're asked to do it. You're a lazy mentor. And really using a day one patch to try to bolster your defence is laughable, and you proved yourself wrong in that statement. When Zurvan came out people trying to clear it had to communicate and explain every little detail to one another in order to get the clear. We didn't sit around and not say anything and we certainly didn't wait until someone requested an explanation on a mechanic.

Your whole statement is stating you don't do things unless you're requested by new players.

[Mavrias]

Someone sounds triggered.

Yeah, man. Definitely.

[Vidu]

Someone sounds triggered.

Your exact words state you won't do it unless everyone wiped, or you're asked to do it. You're a lazy mentor. And really using a day one patch to try to bolster your defence is laughable, and you proved yourself wrong in that statement. When Zurvan came out people trying to clear it had to communicate and explain every little detail to one another in order to get the clear. We didn't sit around and not say anything and we certainly didn't wait until someone requested an explanation on a mechanic.

Your whole statement is stating you don't do things unless you're requested by new players.

The discussion between the two of you shows one fundamental problem - and I'll go a bit offtopic here, but I hope this isnt straying to far:

Something has become painfully clear during this thread: Everyone has a different concept of what a mentor should do or should be. The general guidelines by SE are rarely the basis to judge mentors - according to those mentors need to do nothing more than set an example on behavior, answer questions (highlighted because "answer questions" and "give advice" are two different things, I'll get back to that) and invite people to the NN.
But instead of judging mentors by this standards, various people have various ideas of what a mentor should do - Jetstream and Mavrias are sort of presenting two ideas here: One is explaning mechanics; the other one is more focussed on teaching people how to play their class. Whats the more valid job of a mentor? Which way is the better one, the more "right" one? Am I supposed to give it advice when I see someone making mistakes - or am I only to answer questions directed at me? Is it okay for me to leave a group that clearly doesnt want to be "mentored" in any way or do I have to stick it out with them, watch them repeating the same mistakes again and again, causing more and more wipes? Am I there to advise, to just play my part or to carry the group in the end?

Being a mentor can actually be pretty frustrating - not only because new players dont always listen and even old players are not able to take advice, but also because everyone seems to have their idea of what a "good mentor" should do. You're constantly pushed from one corner to another one - saying nothing, explain everything, explain when asked, get ignored, get told "Dont tell me what to do, I play how I want!"
We dont have any real guidelines on how to mentor, everyone has to make that choice for themself - so both of your positions are valid, there is no point fighting over that. I can totally understand Mavrias frustration when hes told "you're doing it wrong!" - no, hes not. He just interpreted the very open title of "mentor" differently - and since we're missing actual guidelines thats perfectly fine.
I dont want to propose a solution for this, because I dont believe it needs one, at least not one thats set into stone (...some guidelines actually might help, but only as long as the newbies want to be mentored after all...)

Back on topic: Droping out of a dungeon instantly is for sure not the behavior a mentor should show though (unless we want to say "Hey, they're setting an example on how people are handeling dungeons they dont like!" - please notice the joke here) - but arguing what a mentor should do in the end by telling someone "No, you're doing it wrong!" wont accomplish much, I believe.

Edit regarding the Edit made by Jetstream:
Only explaining something when requested is perfectly acceptable - seriously why do we have to enforce mentoring on new people? Instead the game should encourage them to ask. Some might very well enjoy a blind run or dont have any need for explantions, so why should I bother with giving them something they have no intrest in? Personally I dont view myself as some sort of babysitter but as someone who is able to explain 90% of the game when asked about it. And I also dont view a new player as a baby who needs to be pampered and kept from any hardship that may befall them - instead I'll most likely assume they're a more or less capable adult aswell and will ask for advice if they need it. I'm not a mindreader, I dont know if they want or need advice (personally I normally open with something like "If you have any questions or want explantions, you can ask me" but if they dont do that... I'll remain silent. If they dont take advantge of my offer or presence thats not on me and its not me being lazy - its me saving everyones time by not typing words that will fall on deaf ears anyways.

[Mavrias]

Your whole statement is stating you don't do things unless you're requested by new players.

So you know new players aren't stupid, right? If I see a bonus in a dungeon, I'm not gonna sit there and think, "which one of these guys is a degenerate who needs their hand held?" I'm just gonna plod along, linger a bit longer than normal outside the boss fight to see if anyone speaks, explain if they request it, start the fight if they don't. If they're noticeably struggling then they get a suggestion or two.

Obviously, if I pull an ex primal from the roulette, then I ask, "y'all know the strat?" If everyone says yes, then we pull and see how it goes. But obviously that's different than a dungeon.

Idk how you did Zurvan but my FC went in, pulled the boss, discussed our thoughts after the wipe, and repeated until we cleared. Then we farmed.

You want something? Ask for it. I've yet to read anyone's mind, and I doubt I'll pick up telepathy any time soon.