We're all DDs now >.>

[Aramina]

I can see the point of in-game parsers now. At the very least, I can yell at the healers for trying to sabotage my DPS by forcing me to deal with mechanics!

Are you trying to make sure that anyone who might have thought your concerns/ideas had merit will now be convinced they were wrong and you are nothing more than a shit-stirrer? Because if not.... this is not the proper way -at all- to be listened to.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

Are you trying to make sure that anyone who might have thought your concerns/ideas had merit will now be convinced they were wrong and you are nothing more than a shit-stirrer? Because if not.... this is not the proper way -at all- to be listened to.

Now you see, there is a distinct difference between being a realistic pragmatist, and being a shit stirrer. I'm pointing out that meters would discourage dps from following mechs even more because any drop in dps would reflect badly on them, foisting mechanical responsibilities on tanks and Heals. If you wanna call realistic expectations shit stirring, I have quite different concerns.

[Aramina]

Now you see, there is a distinct difference between being a realistic pragmatist, and being a shit stirrer. I'm pointing out that meters would discourage dps from following mechs even more because any drop in dps would reflect badly on them, foisting mechanical responsibilities on tanks and Heals. If you wanna call realistic expectations shit stirring, I have quite different concerns.

Not really. Dead people do no dps. I don't have a horse in the race for parsers or against parsers, but having come from games with in-game parsers, I can assure you it was not healers being blamed for people standing in bad. I don't think FF players are so far removed from anything resembling intelligent thought that they would somehow be different.

[Shurrikhan]

'm pointing out that meters would discourage dps from following mechs even more because any drop in dps would reflect badly on them, foisting mechanical responsibilities on tanks and Heals. If you wanna call realistic expectations shit stirring, I have quite different concerns.

If anything I see the opposite. Because people fear the crippling dps loss that comes with death, for which parsing makes them are accountable more directly than their healers, they tend to dodge anything they know could kill them unless absolutely positive someone would immunize them through it for the necessary added dps. And it's always been fully within the healers rights in those situations to say that someone, who's frequently edging death and savable only at great mana cost, isn't worth it; their being more important people or more immediate or direct outputs to prioritize instead.

[KaijinRhada]

If anything I see the opposite. Because people fear the crippling dps loss that comes with death, for which parsing makes them are accountable more directly than their healers, they tend to dodge anything they know could kill them unless absolutely positive someone would immunize them through it for the necessary added dps. And it's always been fully within the healers rights in those situations to say that someone, who's frequently edging death and savable only at great mana cost, isn't worth it; their being more important people or more immediate or direct outputs to prioritize instead.

I would also like to add that DPS meters can also allow people to see output per target, damage dealt, damage taken, healing done and healing taken. I don't raid here, but I do in another game, and I can say having that information is indispensable.

We can see who is padding, who is actually killing adds, the needless damage people take, and if people are overhealing. Sure, people will tunnel, but in fights that require everyone to do mechanics, it's useful to see where you can tighten up your rotations, because most people that actually care about their performance should be able to watch themselves and not be chronically dead from mechanics.

[Shurrikhan]

I would also like to add that DPS meters can also allow people to see output per target, damage dealt, damage taken, healing done and healing taken. I don't raid here, but I do in another game, and I can say having that information is indispensable.

We can see who is padding, who is actually killing adds, the needless damage people take, and if people are overhealing. Sure, people will tunnel, but in fights that require everyone to do mechanics, it's useful to see where you can tighten up your rotations, because most people that actually care about their performance should be able to watch themselves and not be chronically dead from mechanics.

Yep, more information is a good thing. And once you have access to the data, it can be reorganized in any sort of useful way to provide near endless information. Recount in WoW's a good start, and is already many degrees of information more thorough than ACT here, but anyone who's serious goes further unto warcraftlogs in order to see the exact timings of their ability applications, whether they should have held CDs, where they could trim sustain in favor of burst and avoid the wipe via add, how best to push phases, etc.

If we could be the first MMO to give serious information accessibility without needing addons, I think that'd be a decent selling point or even a keeper for many MMO-jumping raiders out there. And, more importantly, it'd go a long way to help any of those lower performing players who at least want to learn and do better, and probably pushing more players to care in the first place by taking away they're "you can't know that; I'll report you" excuse (when we're really just looking at how they're not attacking the vuln'ed target, never have buffs up nor ever apply their debuffs).

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

Snip.

My apologies, but seeing as people are already trying to kill any sense of meaningful support in favor of keeping incredibly blase higher numbers buttons with the new cross class system, I have very little expectations that dps meters would be used in anyway that would be constructive. But hey, I have no faith in the community whereas you seem to.

[Shurrikhan]

My apologies, but seeing as people are already trying to kill any sense of meaningful support in favor of keeping incredibly blase higher numbers buttons with the new cross class system, I have very little expectations that dps meters would be used in anyway that would be constructive. But hey, I have no faith in the community whereas you seem to.

I'll trade you my faith in community for your faith in development, if you've still got it.

Seriously though, I don't think there's anything bad to come of making a game's playerbase more realistically informed and accountable. I will agree however that information accelerates change, and one (less attractive portion) of such is the narrowing of choices considered feasible. As conventions become more deeply established I will also agree that playerbases seem to somehow lose common sense or adaptability as soon as anything occurs outside of said conventions.

But, I'd argue that a playerbase that can better make use of information is also more capable or thinking for themselves, and adapting said thinking. Increased information may be a double-edged sword to some degree, but the its progression is by no means fatalistic.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

I'll trade you my faith in community for your faith in development, if you've still got it.

Amusingly enough I still do. XD Despite only playing since 2.0, I still have faith and respect in both Yoshida and the developers. Of course, while I do agree that an accelerated change isn't necessarily a bad thing, the community's zealous obsession with MUH DEEPS, even if it's only by one point, has pretty much killed any faith I had. While more information can be good, of course, I'd argue that all it does is hasten entropy, and in fact kills any adaptability because the only perceived way to do things is the 'correct way', even if there's another more feasible alternative, or equally feasible. The example with WoW is one of the things I especially hate, because all it does is enforce hive mind mentality and squashes any kind of creative problem solving.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Amusingly enough I still do. XD Despite only playing since 2.0, I still have faith and respect in both Yoshida and the developers. Of course, while I do agree that an accelerated change isn't necessarily a bad thing, the community's zealous obsession with MUH DEEPS, even if it's only by one point, has pretty much killed any faith I had. While more information can be good, of course, I'd argue that all it does is hasten entropy, and in fact kills any adaptability because the only perceived way to do things is the 'correct way', even if there's another more feasible alternative, or equally feasible. The example with WoW is one of the things I especially hate, because all it does is enforce hive mind mentality and squashes any kind of creative problem solving.

This is as much the developer's fault as the community's though. Friends and I were discussing Warrior and how it's essentially become "Fell Cleave: The Job." Everyone puts so much emphasis on how many Fell Cleaves they'll pull off above anything else. Why? Because nothing required Warrior to mitigate. When I can Holmgang every tank buster and easily be healed or heal myself, what do I need Raw and Vengeance for? They just become Fell Cleave buttons. For all the issues surrounding Gordias and, to a lesser extent, Midas, you just couldn't get away with that. Hopefully, the devs follow through with a third difficulty or super fight that actually forces strong mitigation and healing. That is when the DPS meta takes a backseat.