PSA - Cleric Stance and vote kicking

[HakuroDK]

I know I posted here before, and I'm about to make the same point again, but here goes anyway.

Healers are a type of casting class. Casters should always be casting. Doesn't matter if you're casting heal spells or DPS spells. As long as you're doing what you need to do and not just standing around doing nothing, you're doing your job.

If the tank is taking obscene damage and you're not DPSing, that's fine. If the tank is holding his own and you decide to DPS since the tank doesn't really need much healing, that is also fine!

The problem is when the party isn't getting healed because you're too focused on DPS to care, OR you're so focused on ONLY healing that, when there's nothing to heal, you're not doing anything. That's what's lazy. You have to find the happy medium between healing and DPSing and balance the two. I think that's what the devs intended for Cleric Stance, but it was executed poorly, I feel.

[Kaurie]

With the new changes to cleric stance and so many people on the forums now saying that there is zero excuse to not dps as a healer in SB, please keep the following in mind.

This is a request for the community, not a public service announcement. You aren't announcing something...

That said, why do you naturally assume people will kick people who don't DPS? I honestly cannot even remember the last time someone was kicked in a DF group. I am fairly certain kicking is a pretty rare occurrence.

Healers are a type of casting class. Casters should always be casting. Doesn't matter if you're casting heal spells or DPS spells. As long as you're doing what you need to do and not just standing around doing nothing, you're doing your job.

Well the difference between FFXIV and other games with healers makes this true. In most other games, damage is less predictable and can suddenly send someone from near max health to near dead, and requires your immediate attention. In FFXIV, even if someone eats an aoe, you have quite a bit of time to top them off. Even in Savage raids, the damage is highly predictable. Another major difference is that in most other games, mana/MP is a huge issue for healers, where DPSing may result in you not being able to heal. Whereas in FFXIV, each healer has an active MP regenerating ability.

[Belhi]

I know I posted here before, and I'm about to make the same point again, but here goes anyway.

Healers are a type of casting class. Casters should always be casting. Doesn't matter if you're casting heal spells or DPS spells. As long as you're doing what you need to do and not just standing around doing nothing, you're doing your job.

If the tank is taking obscene damage and you're not DPSing, that's fine. If the tank is holding his own and you decide to DPS since the tank doesn't really need much healing, that is also fine!

The problem is when the party isn't getting healed because you're too focused on DPS to care, OR you're so focused on ONLY healing that, when there's nothing to heal, you're not doing anything. That's what's lazy. You have to find the happy medium between healing and DPSing and balance the two. I think that's what the devs intended for Cleric Stance, but it was executed poorly, I feel.

To be honest hearing them talk about it, it sounds like Cleric Stance was intended as a means to allow Healers to do solo content like the MSQ. It doesn't sound like it was ever intended to be incorporated into instanced content. Indeed, at least up to this point, healer dps wasn't even factored in when calculating the health pool of raid enemies. The existing situation has occurred because the Healing mechanics in this game are rather underwhelming and this leads to a large amount of down time for healers. Rather than either deal with the issues with Healer gameplay or adapted the healer classes to have their heals be a more core aspect of their classes function mechanically, they have just removed the one mechanic dps healing had. Worst of both worlds in my view. Now healers are pushed in the direction of being more actively dpsing but with less engaging Job mechanics to do it with.

[DaikiKiyoshi]

@Kaurie, have you not seen some of the threads that popped up about the changes and people saying there's now zero excuse for healers to not dps. All the people who say they will kick healers for not dpsing? I've seen it happen in parties I've been in.

[Alleo]

So after reading through all the pages just some small cents from me since most have been already said (and I am kinda shocked at some posts): So why does Yoshida on one hand say that healers dont need to DPS and on the other hand they introduced DPS at the healer part of the newcomer hall? I mean this is at the beginning of the game and they already tell you in that "tutorial" that you should cast some damage spells if the other players dont need heals. These two sentences do kinda contradict each other. Also why create content where, if most of your other players know their job at least decently, the healer will stand around with a lot of downtime? Why are there barely any big heals necessary in most of the dungeons and yet they have so many DPS races? Why block mass pulls thanks to gating yet dont make the trash hit more harder at the same time? I mean if you are at least a decent healer with a decent group..you will have barely anything to do if there is no big pull.

I wont kick someone for not DPSing as a healer, the same how I will not kick a tank or DD for not using their job in a good way unless we will not be able to clear the dungeon or if that person is really rude but you will not get an commendation from me and I will have my negative thoughts about your playstyle (and if you stand around and/or dance..well I will stand around too if a AOE is targeting me You will have more to do and I can DPS longer.)

I am just getting really annoyed at pure healers that are standing around, doing dances while I as a DD try to give my best and on top of that have to handle mechanics too because somehow the healer does not want to do it. I remember a run in Alwaysweep where I also had to take care of all of the totems alone. The healer was just standing around doing nothing..so please dont go around and say that your job as a healer is the most stressful one because often we DD also have to do the mechanics on top of dishing out the DPS.

I will not say that DPS healers are better skilled or something but at least in my experience those DD Healers can often react faster to some situations. Yes it did happen that someone died because the healer was healing in cleric (been there done that x)) but rarely was this a reason for wipe. At the same time I cant count the number of times that pure healers reacted too slow on sudden incoming damages. I can put some fault on the DD or tank if it was avoidable but I always facepalm at healers that cant keep people alive after unavoidable aoes..really we had a pure healer at the recent 60 dungeon..and if my paladin friend did not help with his heal and if I had not rezzed the dragoon as a summoner we would have wiped. Simply because the healer somehow was not able to heal us fast enough..with very good gear on every player...yet the next run we had a healer with barely minimum equipment. He wanted big pulls and nobody died in that run even though he was dpsing quite a lot.

Anyway I would also kinda look forward to but also fear if they would make dungeons where everyone has to be quite good at their major role. First I am afraid of all the bad DDs but also all the healers that simply cant keep a decently equipped group alive. At the same time more dungeons like the vault or having those as standard dungeons might mean that the skill level might get higher since people would need to finally be at least good in their jobs.

In the end I want dungeons where every role has to play at the fullest and if that means more healing for healers then thats fine by me. They are healers so I can understand wanting to heal and not DPS but as long as they keep the skill level of a dungeon where its right now..well healing often means lots of downtime and little healing while the others have to always do their best. And that simply not fair imo. I know that there are groups where you need to be on your toes constantly but dungeons should not be designed with the worst players in mind.

All that is just my opinion. As someone that sometimes heals too I am kinda looking forward not needing cleric stance anymore. Means more fluid DPS healing changes without the fear of healing in cleric stance. x)

[Silverquick]

@Kaurie, have you not seen some of the threads that popped up about the changes and people saying there's now zero excuse for healers to not dps. All the people who say they will kick healers for not dpsing? I've seen it happen in parties I've been in.

Never seen it... not even once...

I HAVE seen healers kicked for failing to heal properly... or failing at it entirely...

I have never in any circumstance ever seen anyone scream at healers for not DPSing or called them out for it. I HAVE seen them call out DPS for not DPSing... but never once ever... have I seen them blame healers for it. Its that idiotic.

That's really why you guys look more like you're running an agenda rather than playing the actual game.

No one judges healers on their DPS unless they're completely incompetent and stupid... they DO however judge them on their lack of healing or failures to do so.

That said, go ahead and DPS if you want, its not a problem, and it is helpful.

[Kaurie]

@Kaurie, have you not seen some of the threads that popped up about the changes and people saying there's now zero excuse for healers to not dps. All the people who say they will kick healers for not dpsing? I've seen it happen in parties I've been in.

I don't frequent these forums as much as before, so I haven't seen them. That said, stating "there is no excuse for healers to not DPS!" does not mean that they will kick a healer for not DPSing.

I personally think there is no excuse for a co-DPS to put out 25% of my damage output in expert roulette. However, I don't kick those players, and I don't say anything about it.

[Hamada]

Never seen it... not even once...
I HAVE seen healers kicked for failing to heal properly... or failing at it entirely...

I have never in any circumstance ever seen anyone scream at healers for not DPSing or called them out for it. I HAVE seen them call out DPS for not DPSing... but never once ever... have I seen them blame healers for it. Its that idiotic.

That's really why you guys look more like you're running an agenda rather than playing the actual game.

No one judges healers on their DPS unless they're completely incompetent and stupid... they DO however judge them on their lack of healing or failures to do so.

That said, go ahead and DPS if you want, its not a problem, and it is helpful.

I would not put it as "screaming" but I seen snarky comments over healers not DPSing, or asking them to dps or saying there is room to. After this I have seen this run into kicking due to toxic replies of some, like I seen one healer refusing to heal all together because someone bought up the healer DPS thing. Reminds me of this:

https://youtu.be/pBX7OqTXqcc?t=44

[Fyce]

So why does Yoshida on one hand say that healers dont need to DPS and on the other hand they introduced DPS at the healer part of the newcomer hall?

He actually never said that. There was a question about how much Healers DPS was taken into account when balancing savage raid tiers. He said that the balance was made for healers doing 0 DPS... Which, was completly false considering how absurd DPS checks were in Alexander Gordias/Midas. This statement was made two years ago.

But, somehow, people heard "Healers don't have to DPS, ever, in any content" and took it as a sacred text spoken by the god-of-all-things Yoshi-P.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

I'm actually kinda hoping they drastically increase the amount of damage players take in SB. One of the big reasons HW felt so meh to me is that the devs basically embraced the healer dps meta by making the amount of damage players take comparatively small when held up to both the amount of damage players took as well as mechanics. I wonder if devs have decided that it would be a good idea for healers to have an actual skill check that isn't "Can I dps here? Or can I do it here?"

On the other hand, perhaps one of the reasons why they're reducing the risk of players going into cs is actually because they're upping said damage taken severely enough that healers might not even have time to wait for said cooldown to be removable.