Are you guys finally going to DPS and help your party?

[Feidam]

You can't play any other role or job in this game "as you want" either, never could. All jobs are expected to use certain abilities in certain order and in certain cituations. It's not any more accepted to be an ice mage or a bard who only sings than it is to be a heal-only healer.

These arguements kill me.

[VanilleFang]

These arguements kill me.

Why? She has a point.

Why so people accept a healer that ONLY heals, but not a BLM that ONLY uses Ice magic? The BLM is still dealing damage they are just being very, very inefficient. Just like a healer who only heals, or who ignores healing to DPS. The idea that people should be okay with a healer who is lazy, as long as you don't die, is ridiculous and explains why there are so many lazy healers out there.

[HPDelron]

I wouldn't expect to see broad changes in player behavior as a result of this change. Healers that don't want to DPS won't. Healers that do like to DPS will have even more space to do so simply because it's easier to do now. I think a few healers sitting on the border afraid to DPS because they see cleric's stance as intimidating will change their behavior. However I suspect the numbers of players like that are relatively small and we'll mostly see the same behavior we always have.

[ty_taurus]

If it's the DPS's job to do damage and no one else's, who doesn't the off tank just stand by a corner and wait for their turn? Their job isn't damage, it's tanking. Sure you need some damage to tank, but the off tank, in many fights, doesn't need to hold aggro until a swap is necessary. Since Damage "is the responsibility of the DPS only," then there's no reason the off tank can't sit back and watch some YouTube while waiting to tag in.

[Feidam]

Why? She has a point.

Why so people accept a healer that ONLY heals, but not a BLM that ONLY uses Ice magic? The BLM is still dealing damage they are just being very, very inefficient. Just like a healer who only heals, or who ignores healing to DPS. The idea that people should be okay with a healer who is lazy, as long as you don't die, is ridiculous and explains why there are so many lazy healers out there.

It is simple. A healer healing is doing their job. A tank holding threat is doing their job. A dps that does not meet it's cutoffs is not doing their job. Pure and simple. A BLM only using ice magic is not doing it's job. A healer adding dps is extra. A tank adding dps is extra. You can argue that those that do extra are better team players. I would agree. But if a person is fulfilling their role then their job is done.

[Feidam]

If it's the DPS's job to do damage and no one else's, who doesn't the off tank just stand by a corner and wait for their turn? Their job isn't damage, it's tanking. Sure you need some damage to tank, but the off tank, in many fights, doesn't need to hold aggro until a swap is necessary. Since Damage "is the responsibility of the DPS only," then there's no reason the off tank can't sit back and watch some YouTube while waiting to tag in.

Bad example. As it is the off tanks job to have threat beneath the main tank so they are ready for swaps and pick ups. As well as grab adds etc.

[ty_taurus]

Bad example. As it is the off tanks job to have threat beneath the main tank so they are ready for swaps and pick ups. As well as grab adds etc.

What do you think Provoke is for? I mean, all they need to do is hit the boss with provoke and start attacking after that. They'd satisfy the basic requirements of holding hate, no? There aren't always going to be adds. There are many fights where the second tank is only needed for a portion of the battle, and are on standby until then.

What about Bards using their songs? That's subject to change at the moment, but why should a Bard ever use a song? That reduces their DPS, contradicting their primary role. Their job isn't the healer's MP management. Their job isn't their team's DPS other than their own. Their job isn't the tank's and DPS's TP management. Their job is to do as much damage as possible, in your definition.

The point is that it sounds ridiculous. It sounds just as ridiculous for a healer to not use the chunk of their kit dedicated to dealing damage.

[Mavrias]

Instead of thinking of it as doing extra jobs, think of it in terms of button presses. If the dps and tanks are hitting buttons about 35 times per minute each, why is it fair that the healer gets away with hitting buttons only about 15 times in the same minute?

[ty_taurus]

Also, DPS actually DOES indirectly mitigate damage. Take Zurvan EX for example: My clear team was full of Summoners, and it was a struggle to skip Soar even with my DPS. It happened maybe 60% of our runs and the other 40% we failed to skip a mechanic that resulted in a kill on my team almost every time. If I didn't DPS, we wouldn't have skipped Soar at all. That's a huge chunk of MP I had to waste reviving a team member, casting protect, and casting Helios II & Helios to bring us up to a point where we would've been had my DPS pushed us passed that 1% threshold between skipping the mechanic, and failing to do so.

THAT is mitigation that drastically surpasses any other form of mitigation in my kit. Healer DPS is a part of their responsibilities in a fight for reasons such as this.

[Taika]

It is simple. A healer healing is doing their job.

But in this game DPS is part of a healer's job. The DPS abilities are designed to be used in group content and they support the group's goal of defeating the enemies as well as make keeping the party alive easier (with things dying faster and Holy stunning enemies).

But if we were to follow your line of thought...

A tank holding threat is doing their job.

And when there's nothing for the tank to tank? If there are 2 tanks, only 1 boss, no adds, no tank swaps? Is the OT doing their job standing in the corner being prepared to grab the boss if the MT would happen to die (compare to a healer "watching healthbars, being prepared to heal if needed"...)? And if the MT wouldn't die, the OT could pat themself on the back for a job well done? Or if the tank is able to hold hate using nothing but Flash, and does 0 DPS, are they doing their job as well?

And how is someone's "job" defined? Only by their role name? In that case, the 0 DPS OT who doesn't engage any enemies as well as the Flash tank would have done "their job" perfectly well - there was no tanking to do that wasn't done (compare to a healer who doesn't have to heal at all during an instance, yet everyone survives). Since BRD and MCH are "DPS", they're also doing their job without singing / using MP turret at all, right? After all, they're not called support...

Most importantly, what you can "get by" with is not a reasonable argument for anything. You can clear most content in the game with 0 healer DPS. You can also clear most content in the game without Bard songs, with DDs not using any damage buffs, and with an off tank who wouldn't do anything at all during a fight. That doesn't make any of those things acceptable gameplay.

The reason why healers are expected to DPS in this game is so that they would participate in fights as effectively as their party members - because healing requirements so far have been so low that if they're only doing that, they can be only 20% (or less!) active while their DDs and tanks are working full time. What I would like to ask is, do you have any reason to argue why this disparity would be fair and acceptable? I mean anything other than "because they're called healers".

Who decided on these things? You certainly don't. It's game mechanics and class design that dictates what can and should be done, not class/role name.

Game mechanics dictate that when healing is not needed and DPS can be done, the logical thing to do is DPS, because encounter design requires enemy HP bars to be empty. Just because a healer is called a healer doesn't mean DPS isn't part of their job description if they have the tools to DPS.

+1 well said!