seeing all these total newbie tank is hilarious

[winsock]

I like how the mention of DPS causes a jump to an absolute that wasn't even being discussed.

The only absolute I mentioned was that holding threat should take priority over DPS.

With that in mind, I'm not saying that tanks should constantly spam flash. This is an absolute you jumped to by clipping 1 phase out of a larger hypothetical scenario used to argue a point about new tank expectations.

I am arguing that it is silly to say something like "the tank should be able to hold threat on 1 of the 2 targets". If you're going to allow 1 loss in a standard, there's no reason to not allow 2 losses. If you're going to require 1 be held, there's no reason to not require that both be held.

[Valaeric]

No. Learn to hit every mob, because DPS AoEs, which are gained early in the game, don't listen to some fake number system.

Close, but not quite. I agree that tanks should learn to hit every mob but that's because it allows DPS to AoE without problems. In a similar vein, however, DPS should likewise learn when to rein it in and stay under the tank's threat ceiling.

Being a good DPS isn't about putting out big numbers it's about doing the best damage possible without taking unnecessary damage and among other things, that means not pulling hate from the tank.

[RopeDrink]

It's all simply an amalgamation of everyone playing to each others strengths, rather than taking a solo-minded approach (which a lot of people do). A team that has each other in mind, playing at a pace that is comfortable for everyone, will typically always result in smoothness. However, if people see a tank isn't generating emnity as much as they like, they may blame the DPS/Healer while the DPS/Healer blame the tank. The reality could be any number of things - the tank not doing certain things, the DPS trucking like crazy against a particular thing while the tank is trying to gen emnity across the board during a larger than average pull (or attacking the split second after tank has gotten into the fight), or a Healer going overheal crazy (like those newcomers who love sitting there using Cure II when a tank has lost 2% HP rather than just doing DPS until they actually NEED heals.

EDIT:
Example of single mindedness - been grinding some scrips in DF-Sohm Al, got a highly geared Warrior tank (I was healing for a change). They decided to run off without me at the start - pulling when I hadn't moved. Was tempted to just let them die to make a point, but hey, it's not like I don't want to get through the content. They did this numerous times (running off while I'm phasing in to the next area etc) so I chalked it up to either lack of care or plain lack of awareness (tanks with no awareness is one of the bigger dangers). Didn't wait for people to cross boss-lines and prepare, waited for nothing. They allowed mobs to focus on me at least three times, peeling only when I was being gnawed down to 5-10% while healing THEM from their aggressive pulls in DPS stance. As far as I'm concerned, no amount of gear makes this person a better tank than a newbie who loses emnity once in a while but is actually making the effort to reactively remedy their errors before the obvious warning signs (eg. Near dead healers or DPS being the only indication that they're not doing their job properly).

[RokkuEkkusu]

To be fair, the attack power nerf that occurred during 3.2 in Heavensward really made keeping hate with Flash tougher in lower-leveled dungeons as a class, especially for new players who just started gearing as tanks.

For example when I leveled my Excalibur alt (Mikeru) as Gladiator in the level 15-17 dungeons, I straggled to keep hate on multiple mobs even with Shield Lob and using Flash 4 times on multiple mobs due to the lower attack power and the gear discrepancy with veteran party members. Even using the Fast Blade - Savage Blade combo combined with a "Fight or Flight" on a single target barely generates aggro. For reference, here is my tank gear:

- Plundered Celeta (iL 17)
- Brand-new Cuirass (iL 17)
- Brand-new Gauntlet (iL 17)
- Plundered Plate Belt (iL 17)
- Brand-new Trousers (iL 17)
- Brand-new Sabatons (iL 17)

- Weathered Earring (iL 1)
- Weathered Choker (iL 1)
- Weathered Wristlets (iL 1)
- Weathered Ring (iL 1)
- Brand-new ring (iL 30)

These gear items are basically the High-Quality tank gear set that most beginning tanks can equip at best due to their level and resources available early on in the game. Building and maintaining enmity are important tasks as tank, especially when they reach Brayflox's Longstop, but getting the habit of doing so in earlier dungeons can be real challenging for many new tanks as a result of the attack power nerf.

[PogueX]

it takes awhile to be good at tanking, and FF14 low level dungeons don't help cause the kids gloves are on and they are very generous to low level players that don't play their role. Its not till level 45-50 dungeons does the game actually punish people for not playing their role, Stone Vigil for example

[MistakeNot]

For example when I leveled my Excalibur alt (Mikeru) as Gladiator in the level 15-17 dungeons, I straggled to keep hate on multiple mobs even with Shield Lob and using Flash 4 times on multiple mobs due to the lower attack power and the gear discrepancy with veteran party members. Even using the Fast Blade - Savage Blade combo combined with a "Fight or Flight" on a single target barely generates aggro. For reference, here is my tank gear:

- Plundered Celeta (iL 17)
- Brand-new Cuirass (iL 17)
- Brand-new Gauntlet (iL 17)
- Plundered Plate Belt (iL 17)
- Brand-new Trousers (iL 17)
- Brand-new Sabatons (iL 17)

- Weathered Earring (iL 1)
- Weathered Choker (iL 1)
- Weathered Wristlets (iL 1)
- Weathered Ring (iL 1)
- Brand-new ring (iL 30)

You are missing one important thing from that list: Your weapon. The weapon is by far the most important piece of equipment for doing damage and generating aggro.

[Canadane]

Being a good DPS isn't about putting out big numbers it's about doing the best damage possible without taking unnecessary damage and among other things, that means not pulling hate from the tank.

If I ever come across a DD that has to hold off DPS because they'll pull it off me, it's prime indication I need to get better at tanking!

[Sida]

The level disparity can be tricky especially on the leveling dungeons. If the tank is just on the first level where they can enter the dungeon, and having latest gear they can have, the gear can still be up to 4 levels below them, just due the gaps (in pre 50). Add into this a skilled synced down dps who's on the level and gear of the dungeons max and there can be 4 levels disparity between them, and even more between their gear. This happened to me when I was leveling tank, in Brayflox. The dmg complained about me loosing hate, I pointed out that even if I do full enmity combo they still keep peeling it from me. It went smooth from there, I think they reigned in their damage a bit or started to distribute it differently or so. Turned out to be a nice guy.

[Zokus]

My pet peeve with tanking is when I am gathering a crowd of mobs and a ranged dps grabs a mob and then stands out of my range and keeps attacking it. Its like, sure let me bring this crowd over to you since you can't be inconvenienced to bring that single mob to me.

[Yorumi]

The level disparity can be tricky especially on the leveling dungeons.

I think people fail to understand what a big difference this makes. As I was working on my anima weapon on warrior I was doing a lot of expert with the i260 weapon. I had full augmented shire gear(270) with materia melds. So I was ilevel 270 on all slots except weapon which was 260. That weapon is 2 weapon damage lower than the lux version. It was kind of interesting to watch how much hate a maxed out dps with a 275 weapon could do. In fact, in deliverance on bosses, I couldn't out threat a dps and would eventually have to jump back into defiance for a bit. That's with a minor gear difference, and I know how to do a proper berserk opener.

Speaking to the topic at hand, and with the above in mind why are the dps not equally at fault? Obviously some people suck and just don't even bother to read their skills, sure try to help and then ridicule them if they fail to heed advice. If a tank is at least trying to hold hate though but is still new and doesn't know all the game's secrets, why can't a dps change targets? It's likely going to be a skilled dps who's pulling hate off a lesser skilled/geared tank. So watch your hate generation, when it gets close to pulling change targets where you'll be way behind and that gives the tank some breathing room. It just seems like everyone looks at every nuance of tanking and declares a tank terrible, but at the same time never says anything about a dps that just blindly mashes out dps with no concern for their own threat. As a dps I could go into a dungeon and pull hate on every mob and no one will ever say a word. As a tank if any mob so much as blinks at someone else you'll hear no end about how terrible the tank is.