seeing all these total newbie tank is hilarious

[winsock]

You're right, I have no way of reading minds to see if someone read their tooltips. I'm not psychic. All I can do is make assumptions based on what I see, when I see someone using an ability correctly or when I see someone spamming Bootshine instead of building stacks. You're right that it's unfair, and I'm just judging performance.

No worries! I'm fine with you changing your definition to something performance based as it is verifible. Could you lay out your performance standard? What is and isn't acceptable performance for a new tank in your opinion?

Ex:
Are they allowed to lose threat, miss with flash, etc?

[RopeDrink]

Here's how I see it. There's only so many times you need to flub an ability before common sense should kick in, even if you don't read the tooltip (as far as, say, PLD is concerned). If people don't read a flash-tooltip and decide to use it in the middle of nowhere thinking it's a tab-target ability, they should clearly see it doesn't work that way after 1st/2nd time. It may take slightly longer to adapt to the actual range of the AoE effect, so a missed flash here or there (given latency can effect this in terms of enemies on the move even for experienced players), should be forgiven, provided it doesn't happen regularly. If it does, then positioning could be questioned, nevermind their use of the ability.

Losing threat is a bit different, given it'll happen often to new players and most will immediately assume it's a DPS problem for 'hitting what I haven't marked' (when they shouldn't be playing like this in the first place). Most new tanks will resort to comboing single mobs while relying on flash for the rest (if at all - I've seen more than enough who go full single-target and don't even flash), whereas an experienced tank would rotate between the mobs with their combos with flash being mostly an opener/filler between combos. I'm a PC player but I imagine tab-target rotations on controller is a bit more awkward in comparison, so maybe platform has some kind of effect(?)

Then there are other cases where new-healers are pre-HoT'ing the group or applying emnity generating abilities before the tank has even gotten near mobs (this happens a lot), as well as TONNES of aggressive DPS in the lower bracket who understand that if a healer is awake, you don't really need a tank there to push forward, so an inexperienced tank is on the backfoot straight away if they're not up to speed with how emnity works or others are also making it a little harder than it needs to be for them (but that only really applies in very low level content).

An up and coming tank should typically be able to do a passable job simply from common-sense alone. By the time they realize they do/don't like the class/role, it's then they should take it up a notch by checking how they can improve on their play - this is a step a lot of people skip. If I see tanks flailing around in the mid-level range, that's when you should be a bit concerned, as it shows they probably have no interest in doing better than they currently are and/or just don't care. As for the higher-level aspect, that's when making your own parties should be used to weed out the chaff who got to 60 and still haven't got an iota of a clue what they're doing.

[winsock]

Here's how I see it. There's only so many times you need to flub an ability before common sense should kick in, even if you don't read the tooltip (as far as, say, PLD is concerned). If people don't read a flash-tooltip and decide to use it in the middle of nowhere thinking it's a tab-target ability, they should clearly see it doesn't work that way after 1st/2nd time. It may take slightly longer to adapt to the actual range of the AoE effect, so a missed flash here or there (given latency can effect this in terms of enemies on the move even for experienced players), should be forgiven, provided it doesn't happen regularly. If it does, then positioning could be questioned, nevermind their use of the ability.

Losing threat is a bit different, given it'll happen often to new players and most will immediately assume it's a DPS problem for 'hitting what I haven't marked' (when they shouldn't be playing like this in the first place). Most new tanks will resort to comboing single mobs while relying on flash for the rest (if at all - I've seen more than enough who go full single-target and don't even flash), whereas an experienced tank would rotate between the mobs with their combos with flash being mostly an opener/filler between combos. I'm a PC player but I imagine tab-target rotations on controller is a bit more awkward in comparison, so maybe platform has some kind of effect(?)

Here is where I think it gets tricky when trying to define expectations:
Flash -> Flash generates more enmity than fast blade -> savage blade. Technically speaking, appropriate target cycling isnt necessary to hold a group of mobs at low level. If you can hold off a dps with the combo, you can hold every target off of them by spamming flash.

So for the sake of discussion, let's say we have a party for sastasha like:
* new GLD (w/ sufficient gear)
* vet BLM
* vet BLM
* new CNJ (assume heals only for the sake of the example).

The first 2 bats are pulled, the dps are on different targets.

If I say:
"The tank is allowed to lose threat on 1 bat." It's a little frustrating....
If the tank can hold threat on 1 bat, there is little reason the tank should not be able to hold both. Spamming flash is easier than comboing anyway.

The opposite is true too though... If the tank is allowed to lose threat on 1 bat, there is no reason they shouldn't be allowed to lose threat on both. Ex. if they lose threat because flash wasnt spammed fast enough, its reasonable to assume both BLMs could pull off.

[RopeDrink]

Spamming flash is easier than comboing anyway.

Spamming flash costs resources - combos don't. Relying entirely on flash alone also means you're doing absolutely no damage at all. It's all well and fine mashing flash, but you only need to flash about as many times as there are mobs if you anticipate AoE damage, provided you do some rotating after. It's not exactly difficult, thus should be encouraged. The above is akin to bad habits that work fine in the lower bracket but can become a crutch or lead to bigger problems before, say, PLD's reach the Sheltron & combo variety stage of not even needing to consider their MP any more.

[SyzzleSpark]

Fast Blade -> Riot Blade -> Flash -> Repeat is a thing.

[winsock]

Spamming flash costs resources - combos don't. Relying entirely on flash alone also means you're doing absolutely no damage at all. It's all well and fine mashing flash, but you only need to flash about as many times as there are mobs if you anticipate AoE damage, provided you do some rotating after. It's not exactly difficult, thus should be encouraged. The above is akin to bad habits that work fine in the lower bracket but can become a crutch or lead to bigger problems before, say, PLD's reach the Sheltron & combo variety stage of not even needing to consider their MP any more.

I would argue that prioritizing DPS over your ability to hold threat is a bad habit. IMO it is better for a new tank to have more than the minimum amount of flashes than not enough. Why flash at all in the above scenario if you are going to lose threat on 1 of the bats? Is it reasonable to expect a brand new to tank to hold perfect threat + hit max DPS?

[RopeDrink]

I like how the mention of DPS causes a jump to an absolute that wasn't even being discussed. Nobody said anything about maximizing or even prioritizing DPS - it's about emnity being easily held with combos that keep your MP up enough to always be ready for extra pulls, patrols, mechanic/spawns, and anything that could happen mid-fight - while actually doing DPS and never needing to stop - whereas a flash-masher will hold aggro 100% there and then, but will have nothing for emergencies, will be doing absolutely zero damage, and has no backup for those moments where extras join in - and may even need to stop after packs to let MP regenerate. Sure, in the low level bracket with DPS trucking random targets, a tank may need to resort to this - but should not be relying on it entirely. It's simply not necessary and has more drawbacks than positives, even if it stops that 'bat' from losing aggro. I wouldn't call a tank bad for losing sight of an enemy once in a while - even a rotator can't always see how hard X is hitting Y while they're weaving on different targets - at least they'll have MP for if the situation demands it, whereas someone who mashes flash repeatedly will overcome that situation at a cost later.

Fast Blade -> Riot Blade -> Flash -> Repeat is a thing.

That's pretty much the point I was making. My posts are aimed squarely against the 'mashing flash and flash alone' perspective, even if it does stop that 'bat' from losing aggro because a DPS is going ham right out of the gate.

[Lavitias]

This is why as a new GLD tank you should just mark your targets that way the DPS know what you plan on hitting first unless of course your fine with stuff getting nuked quick in which case spam that flash baby.

[technole]

And this is why not a lot of people tank. They get criticized for trying/learning.....

Criticism isn't limited to the blue jobs.

It's no different than DPS that have no clue how to read tooltips and do a valid rotation, or when a tank or even healer is doing more damage than the two DPS.

This is why as a new GLD tank you should just mark your targets that way the DPS know what you plan on hitting first unless of course your fine with stuff getting nuked quick in which case spam that flash baby.

No. Learn to hit every mob, because DPS AoEs, which are gained early in the game, don't listen to some fake number system.

[RopeDrink]

No. Learn to hit every mob, because DPS AoEs, which are gained early in the game, don't listen to some fake number system.

It's true. You'll also learn that 8/10 players in the lower end of the spectrum, content wise, won't see the point of marks, or (regardless of whether they do or not) may even intentionally go against them for fun. Not everyone, of course, but even if marking was taken seriously by everyone, it's not really the way to play as a tank - I personally reserve marks purely for any priority targets if we have some sprouts around, or someone who isn't so sure how certain things work, or for ease of vision (eg. exploding blobs in Sohm can get drowned in much larger mobs and become hard to see during some packs, so marking them is beneficial even if everyone knows what they're doing).

Rule of thumb for a while has been (for a Paladin, anyway) to flash as many times as there are mobs (smaller packs), then just weave between the individuals. First mistake a lot of new tanks make is flashing once then doing combos single-target (so they'll lose emnity pretty quick to any consistent AoE), some use flash a bit too much, which is a much lesser evil, but the best will have gauged the team enough to know what they need, execute that, then weave their way to glory - others go the extra mile by monitoring the emnity ratios and knowing if/when there's a good time to throw on Sword and go ham depending on emnity levels & comfort with their healer. I wouldn't expect this from an up-and-coming tank, but I would expect them to do their best to prevent any enemies from losing interest in the tank and going for a merry stroll towards a Healer or DPS.

It's not like these things are difficult to learn, it's just not made very obvious when levelling.