Suggestion as to how to get people to become healers.

[Venjenz]

After I ran into today... If you want people play healers, make tanking easier so healers are not stressed over tanks that take too much damage. I know this is not going to be done since most people feel the game easy as is, not healing is very stressful with bad tanks.

Cascade effect of MOAR DPS NAO!! meta.

Just as everyone debates how much DPS healers should be doing to speed things up, so too do people debate dropping tank stance, pulling 3+ packs at once for AE, etc. Just tanking in tank stance and pulling one pack at a time? Sure, if you are a subpar sprout who sucks at gaming, L2p_gitgud_lulz.

And tank players not in the overgeared, i270 crowd read those discussions and figure they are screwing up by not pulling a third of the dungeon at once like the pro-style players (who didn't start doing it until they were overgeared and had properly overgeared teammates, btw). And the discussion always centers on everyone should know how to handle that because L2P_gitgud_lulz. And you get tanks who hardly ever use CDs, stand in fires, don't max gear iLvl and melds, etc who take subpar gear/skills to these mass pulls when they have no business doing it at all, and/or you get DPS who never got the "everyone has AE, so let's all use our area stuff" memo, and have neither the skills nor the gear to do proper AE dmg. In my experience, BLM are the only people who you can count on for AE in DF pugs. SMN are about 50-50, and almost nobody else ever tries, at least in my DF groups.

Cascading effects. One bad thing plus another bad thing leads to a whole series of bad things, almost all based on keeping up with the meta that is half forum myth, half overgeared reality.

[Atlaworks]

Snip

MCH here, got my grenades and bishop for ya. (Really wreaks a number on TP, but I generally don't have problems unless there's no break between like 3 pulls, because cross-class invigorate can go a long way)

[Ama_Hamada]

MCH here, got my grenades and bishop for ya. (Really wreaks a number on TP, but I generally don't have problems unless there's no break between like 3 pulls, because cross-class invigorate can go a long way)

please tell me you switch over to spread shot once the excess tp (over 600) + invigorate is used when things are showing they are not dying fast enough at that point to keep spaming that. Speaking of, brds that spam wide volly and mnks that single DPS every pull pulling hate on that one thing, while leaving me do all the damage as SMN, is also aggravating. Venjenz has a point though, look at the replies I got in the story thread=/ ugh.

That post is really spot on, for me its mnks 33%, though I tend to see higher then 50/50 for smn though.

BLM is easy to do decent aoe, but good ones (with good tanks) spam that thundercloud in the mix while doing the pulls.

[Venjenz]

MCH here, got my grenades and bishop for ya. (Really wreaks a number on TP, but I generally don't have problems unless there's no break between like 3 pulls, because cross-class invigorate can go a long way)

I will stipulate that MCH tend to be ahead of SMN and not too far from BLM where reliable AE play is concerned. I don't get them that often in DF pugs. When I get BLM and MCH at the outset, I may do the first pull as a single, and normally, I know within seconds that that DPS combo says go go go.

My bad on forgetting MCHs. But really, it's few jobs and fewer people who play that kind of speed pull DPS well. And the "go go go" meta requires everyone doing their part to make it work, not just a tank willing to round up 12+ mobs.

[Kosmos992k]

Cascade effect of MOAR DPS NAO!! meta.

Just as everyone debates how much DPS healers should be doing to speed things up, so too do people debate dropping tank stance, pulling 3+ packs at once for AE, etc. Just tanking in tank stance and pulling one pack at a time? Sure, if you are a subpar sprout who sucks at gaming, L2p_gitgud_lulz.

And tank players not in the overgeared, i270 crowd read those discussions and figure they are screwing up by not pulling a third of the dungeon at once like the pro-style players (who didn't start doing it until they were overgeared and had properly overgeared teammates, btw). And the discussion always centers on everyone should know how to handle that because L2P_gitgud_lulz. And you get tanks who hardly ever use CDs, stand in fires, don't max gear iLvl and melds, etc who take subpar gear/skills to these mass pulls when they have no business doing it at all, **snip**
Cascading effects. One bad thing plus another bad thing leads to a whole series of bad things, almost all based on keeping up with the meta that is half forum myth, half overgeared reality.

This is a pretty concise and accurate statement of why the MOAR DPS meta exists and how it has infected other play. I can understand the need for pushing DPS hard in end-game content. I understand why it is needed there. But it's that cascade into other content and other parts of the player community that causes problems. Tanks who are just over the min ilvl for a dungeon have no place trying to mass pull the dungeon, DPS in the same position will write checks that their weapon can't cash and healers will fall behind if the tank is geared to multi-pull unless they too are equally overgeared.

And of course healers who are always behind the curve trying to catch up with the incoming damage while the tank continues to run forward as if the healer can instacast their heals. Yep, perfect recipe for a smooth an enjoyable run.

[Venjenz]

for me its mnks 33%, though I tend to see higher then 50/50 for smn though.

BLM is easy to do decent aoe, but good ones (with good tanks) spam that thundercloud in the mix while doing the pulls.

For me, MNKs are around 10%...maybe. BLM, MCH and SMN are the only DPS who I see any proper AE from with any sort of reliability. And for anyone besides BLM, there is no AE unless a BLM is there to get the ball rolling, even SMN and MCH. Not saying that makes those players bad, just that the meta of "everyone can clear any dungeon in under 5 minutes, just L2P_gitgud_lulz" is not realistic a lot of the time.

[DaikiKiyoshi]

This is going to sound incredibly elitist here so I do apologise in advance, but I can't really see a better way to put this across or sugar coat it.

No worries.

I see people passionately shouting this 'content DOESNT require healers to DPS ooh my'. Pretty much every single time my curiosity gets the better of me and I go to have a look, no logs, no raid mounts on lodestone thus is fairly safe to assume no experience to back it up =/ By all means prove me wrong, I don't mean this as a personal attack, rather I just love a good debate <3

No one will be able to see my main by looking at my lodestone and I'm not in any hurry to change that either. Suffice to say I do have experience in current tier raids as a healer and dps. I have yet to clear a12s but I have the rest down.

In the content you've experienced, you are absolutely correct, I'm fairly certain it's mathematically possible to beat expert roulette with auto attack damage. And yes, if you hold off hitting savage until your group has mostly tome/24 man gear then you can also easily get away without it.

Noted. Also since you say this the following confuses me

However, saying that healer DPS is absolutely NOT required to clear savage is just as incorrect as saying it IS. To counter quote and bold:

This is contradictory. It either is or it isn't. There's no middle ground here.

Originally Posted by Yoshida
Certainly for people who are at world's first level, their goal is to clear it at as low an item level as possible, lower than the one assumed during development. So if you look at the fight and figure out that if it's not numerically possible to clear with four DPS and tanks, you'll need to make up the gap with DPS from healers. Then when those publish clear videos and other people see the healers DPSing, they might think that healers need to be DPSing even though its a situation that only arose because their clear would have otherwise been impossible.

SE never intended for players to have to use healer dps to clear content. This was something players figured out they could do to cheese the system and get clears sooner then they would have been able to otherwise. Indeed sooner then the devs intended. If you are playing the game as the devs intended then dps from healers is not required. It's only when we start going by player made rules and player established Metas that healer dps becomes required, but only because players said it is. All content can be cleared in a timely manner without healer dps if everyone is geared appropriately.

Now note that SE typically work on the assumption that the 'min' ilvl is about halfway through that tier and yes, the progression FCs going for early clears will generally find themselves in a situation where they do actually require DPS optimisation from both their healers and tanks.

This disparity in opinion seems to stem between those that have experienced progression raiding in endgame content vs those that haven't. Both sides would do well to appreciate this and perhaps even accept that rather than being as cut and dry as Yoshida would like, it's actually a bit of a grey area.

It's grey area only because players have learned to adapt to what they are given in ways the devs did not foresee. Rather than waiting for the dps to be appropriately geared to down the content people figured out they could use healer dps to beat it while being undergeared. I would use the fact that the devs nerfed Holy into oblivion to back this up. They realized what players had figured out. They realized their mistake and they took steps to try to fix it.


So anyway, I am responding in regards to people claiming that the devs intended for people to dps as healers when they clearly didn't.

As to if people should or not is a whole other debate.

[Eloah]

I didn't read every post but I don't mind Cleric Stance, it provides me a nice amount of gameplay over just standing there and waiting to heal someone. But what about tank stance dancing why does no one mention this. I saw someone in an earlier post say make it even across the board, that applies to everything. Ultimately, Cleric Stance isn't the real issue; we all know what the real issue is we just prefer not to acknowledge it. Oh, and in regards to th OP, Cleric Stance is easiest on SCH not the hardest, I dunno what made them think that.

[Cadmar]

Cleric Stance is one of the few reasons I can stomach playing the healer role on occasion. Without having to stance dance it is just way too easy. WHM especially needs Cleric Stance to make the job feel more robust. SCH and AST have a little more juggling to do but are also enhanced by Cleric's.

I have a feeling that they ARE going to get rid of it but I'm going to be very sad to see it go. Personally, if they do, and don't replace it with something as interesting the opposite will happen for me... I will be playing healer less.

[Keikun]

The real problem is more like "How to get people to ´become good healers".



And I bet you, some are still gonna refuse it as a matter of principle. And some are still gonna be like "But, but...the tank could miraculously get one-shotted and die while I'm in the middle of casting Stone II for 2 seconds"

The people who would dps more without cleric stance are the people who would eventually start dpsing anyway once they feel more comfortable.
Only difference I expect here is that they might be inclined to start dpsing sooner because the risk/penalty of cleric stance is gone.

So you become a good healer by...attacking?
You better improve that slacking DPS of yours before begging for more damage so you can kill something relatevely "fast"

This only will make healers move to other roles, like the "Im thever the one to blame even if my dps is low" DPS.