Suggestion as to how to get people to become healers.

[Vexander]

Zohja nailed it. Thats exactly what I was getting at.

I disagree, I believe Ralts was correct. It was the impression I also received from the post, that the other healer was making a case of out-classing their co-healer. I think at this point it is valid to say Cleric Stance was designed as an ability to use in Questing/Fates/Solo content and that the Developers didn't intend for healers to be using it in a Dungeon situation. Players gave it that utility, because by nature we take the most efficient route where possible. If you need to go from point A to point C, and you can avoid point B, why wouldn't you? You save time and resources. This is especially true for dungeons and the likes where, the sooner you've completed a dungeon, the sooner you can queue for another, or move on to a different activity in the game.

What we have now is a divide amongst healers and would-be healers that focuses largely around DPS'ing in groups. Its not a particularly healthy divide, and I think the post Ralts was replying to highlighted that. Its one thing to say you're an inefficient -player- for not making use of every available resource, and another to say you're an inefficient -healer- because you only heal and avoid using Cleric Stance in group content.

[Sida]

This is akin of saying ninja mudra skills should all be under their specific skills without the mudras. Or that monk skills should have max effect regardless of position, or tanks should have permanent CD effects because, oh my, effort, and it's so hard to pay attention. The healing is already easy in this game as it is. If a would be healer can't handle the cleric stance, they couldn't handle healing without it either in any even remotely complicated situation. What I mean is, if you have a tendency to have tanks dying because you miscalculate CS then start paying attention to hp bars and boss cast bass. No one requires healers nuking beyond their capability of healing.

[Leigaon]

Remove the need to cleric stance.

As long as you're okay with the way they decide to balance it, more power to you. I doubt it will make numbers rise that much for healers. Then again I could be wrong. Having the stance doesn't hinder me at all so I don't get annoyed with it, then again I'm okay with it not being there. Whichever, I heal for other reasons. Throwing stones is just an added bonus.

The solution of removing cleric and having it applied to mind is simple, it's the rebalancing that's the part people seem to forget that will upset them.

What are some drawbacks people are willing to accept? Reduced potency on the spells? Higher MP costs?

Then again, what could be done to combine the two? Say Stone III is scaled to MND, would the stance be something to keep around as a role ability but changed? Instead of swapping INT for MND it could do something completely different, maybe a buff to the nukes to even things out. It wouldn't be a permanent buff and could be something different, or similar. Lots of options to get lost in as you go down the rabbit hole.

Anyways, good luck to you. Maybe you'll get what you want, if not you always have DPS and tanks.

[Venjenz]

I don't think it's the cleric stance. I've main'd both healers back in the day, and the reason I switched was the community itself, as well as the boredom when playing these jobs.

You can be the "best" healer out there, or you can be one of the most slacking ones, at the end it don't matter because healers are always at fault for everything.

And I know a lot of people, that think the same way, if the mindset of people would change a bit, and I am not saying a healer shouldn't dps/heal/both or be the scapegoat but sometimes it's just taking out of concept and making the game more of a real life job, were you need to carry people through all kind of content, then actual a game you can enjoy and relax in.

Same for tanks. I think there's a reason everybody and their pets play dps, and are very quick in screaming at the healer/tank when something goes wrong, instead of looking at their mistakes.

But sure if you want the cleric stance changed and think that fixes the problem, I am all for it, but I doubt that a lot of people would pick up healing after that, especially not new players.

This. Some of the best players I have known in any MMO flat out refuse to ever play heals or tank because they hate the community BS that comes with the job. Easier and more fun to just sit back and DPS.

And this entire thread, plus the 500+ page thread on the healer forums about DPS, speaks to one more thing healers catch blame for, same as tanks. You have to be properly on the job doing heals obviously, but even if you do all that right and nobody dies, we'll parse your DPS to see if we still have room to yell at you for something. Somehow, I am sure we can find a reason our healer/tank sucked today, and if we have nothing else we'll just holler at you for slacking on DPS.

Just the expectation of keeping people alive turns people away from the job, and the meta now argues that healing is EZ mode and healers who don't contribute significant DPS suck and should be vote kicked. Cleric Stance going away would make that meta worse, imho, because the DPS expectation would be higher given that there are no buggy mechanics to provide cover. Net result = even fewer healers willing to put up with the community's nonsense.

[Faliandra]

I disagree, I believe Ralts was correct. It was the impression I also received from the post, that the other healer was making a case of out-classing their co-healer. I think at this point it is valid to say Cleric Stance was designed as an ability to use in Questing/Fates/Solo content and that the Developers didn't intend for healers to be using it in a Dungeon situation. Players gave it that utility, because by nature we take the most efficient route where possible. If you need to go from point A to point C, and you can avoid point B, why wouldn't you? You save time and resources. This is especially true for dungeons and the likes where, the sooner you've completed a dungeon, the sooner you can queue for another, or move on to a different activity in the game.

What we have now is a divide amongst healers and would-be healers that focuses largely around DPS'ing in groups. Its not a particularly healthy divide, and I think the post Ralts was replying to highlighted that. Its one thing to say you're an inefficient -player- for not making use of every available resource, and another to say you're an inefficient -healer- because you only heal and avoid using Cleric Stance in group content.

If i can do the same or almost same amount of healing or even MORE healing and even manage to cast those FASTER while dpsing in my downtime while the other healer is ONLY healing, then thats an absolutely legitimate outclassing of the other healer.
And the person he quoted was mainly stating that this makes one healer better than the other. And it does, its more efficient and thats a fact you cant deny.

You just wanna side with the "plz remove cleric stance" cos its "too stressful" for you anyway. If you know the fight and know the amount of damage stuff does, its not stress. Its just being able to foresee whats gonna happen and act accordingly to it.
Other games make you heal for smaller amounts while generally theres a lot more damage coming in. It basically leaves a healer busy enough healing. This game,does not. So its quite a joke to say that using cleric stance is too stressful.

Healer jobs have always been quite stressful in one way or another, if you dont like that, its not your role to begin with.

[Vexander]

If i can do the same or almost same amount of healing or even MORE healing and even manage to cast those FASTER while dpsing in my downtime while the other healer is ONLY healing, then thats an absolutely legitimate outclassing of the other healer.

And the person he quoted was mainly stating that this makes one healer better than the other. And it does, its more efficient and thats a fact you cant deny.

You just wanna side with the "plz remove cleric stance" cos its "too stressful" for you anyway. If you know the fight and know the amount of damage stuff does, its not stress. Its just being able to foresee whats gonna happen and act accordingly to it.
Other games make you heal for smaller amounts while generally theres a lot more damage coming in. It basically leaves a healer busy enough healing. This game,does not. So its quite a joke to say that using cleric stance is too stressful.

Healer jobs have always been quite stressful in one way or another, if you dont like that, its not your role to begin with.

I still maintain its the difference between a better player, not a better healer. That might seem like semantics, but I think its valid. As for the removal of Cleric Stance, as I said earlier in the thread, while that would certainly provoke my interest in a return to healing by removing some of the stress involved with DPS'ing as a healer, they'd also need to give WHM some adjustments before I'd be ready to return. The other healing jobs just do not interest me.

[Sebazy]

What we have now is a divide amongst healers and would-be healers that focuses largely around DPS'ing in groups. Its not a particularly healthy divide, and I think the post Ralts was replying to highlighted that. Its one thing to say you're an inefficient -player- for not making use of every available resource, and another to say you're an inefficient -healer- because you only heal and avoid using Cleric Stance in group content.

Some valid points there <3

Really the blame of this issue arising lays at the feet of the content team, there are plenty of examples right from launch day one where an on the ball healer would literally have nothing to with there GCDs for often rather extended lengths of time. As patches have gone by, it feels like healer DPS has gotten more rewarding with every tier in Heavensward. You just didn't see people making a big deal about it during T5 progression despite the enrage timer because those healers were generally too busy ensuring that the tank would survive the next death sentence. T4 was another example, SCH dps was incredibly potent there, but most had their hands full ensuring the tanks stayed alive vs those dreadnoughts. Yet now, heavenward comes to a close with A12s, which amongst others, features a DPS window that is well over 30 seconds of minimal to no incoming DPS or aoes whilst the boss is fully targetable and attackable. Did SE expect us to get up and go make a coffee at this point?

One closing detail I'll add as well, as you mention yourself, in many situations, time (aka GCDs) is as valuable a resource as MP. Thus from a raiding perspective, it's pretty fair to suggest that someone who wastes their GCDs is inefficient no?

I still maintain its the difference between a better player, not a better healer.

Agreed, I wonder how many of these debates would have been avoided if SE referred to healers as supports instead

[Loki]

I like cleric stance it adds a bit of "strategy/motivation" it's fun. If they erase it i don't know if i will keep sch as main job, i'll certainly fall asleep just by smashing my keyboard in a nobrain way....

[Kosmos992k]

**snip lots of very interesting detail about A12s fight**
In fact, higher damage has actually become a form of mitigation itself.

While practically speaking killing things quicker always functions as an indirect form of mitigation if you analyze a fight over the entire life of the fight, I honestly think that higher damage functioning as mitigation diminishes the value of everything except doing more damage. the more effective that indirect mitigation is, the less impact any other form of play or skill has. MOAR DPS becomes the one and only thing that matters. That's not an RPG, that's a button masher - IMHO.

[Ama_Hamada]

After I ran into today... If you want people play healers, make tanking easier so healers are not stressed over tanks that take too much damage. I know this is not going to be done since most people feel the game easy as is, healing is very stressful with bad tanks.