Why everyone wants do PotD speed run?

[Shougun]

I would love SE to take a stance against bare minimum speed running in a friendly way. In all content. By friendly I mean not messing up player's efficiency rate making the game as a whole slower to progress, but making it far more efficient to 100% content.

In other words, the speed run of now (bare minimum) would be less effective than the speed run patch I'd like to see where doing more is more efficient (players will always want to go fast but now they go fast doing it all, but new players will greatly benefit from this mentality of "do it all"). Also taking away the bare minimum encouragement will allow SE to make dungeons more interesting with designs that would normally get ignored because it "was" all about doing the bare minimum. Side rooms, shifting passages, puzzles, mutations, flash objectives, although especially on puzzles about that shifting/not always there aspect, a puzzle you always have to do will kill people's excitement (unless it is a incredibly well hidden reward to the very attentive, like a dev secret to test how long it takes players to figure out).

How to do that could be through a number of options I imagine a few different ones at tandem, but in the most simple terms you just check what players do content for and make sure the reward is higher for doing it all.

I think in order to keep the dungeon rewards balanced but able to morph to each player's need perhaps they make a new token like a Sigil of Achievement and you can use that to buy light (for your relic), exp bonus (if you're leveling), tomes (of your choice, rate depending on if its a new tome or not), etc, in this way SE can make sure to make the effectiveness of what you personally are looking for the most effective to collect all the Sigils. Again the point of this is not to make player's time less effective compared to now, but more effective compared to now IF they do more of the content - like lets say normally you get 1 point of light for a content, now you get .5 for finishing it but another 1 if you collected the 2 sigils available and sometimes there would be more because maybe a random event spawned in a side room.

The point in tandem is though for example in the Satasha area that gets almost always ignored (side area) if they add a boss there that it could drop unique glamour items, as well as the Sigil of Achievement, or in another thread talking about these ancient lanterns that are normally broken but when they're working players cna do a puzzle that leads them to a treasure room basically (D3 Goblin experience lol). So its not /only/ Sigils, but the Sigils would also be reward on top of and on the side of the new content SE can add because people are encouraged to do more dungeon (but, if you're late to the game and your friends want to quest rush you to the end they can still skip all that stuff).

For PotD all the similar thought process, but I'd just make sure that in areas that are really big they feel more rewarding - so if you get a bunch of massive room chains that you're actually excited because you'd get more EXP/tokens (PotD has a few tokens of its own already).

Basically playing the game's content closer to completion > better use of your time than bum rushing the exit blocker over and over. Quality > Quantity. Again doing this would also allow SE to fiddle more with the dungeon's designs than now because now's mentality is TO THE DOOR IGNORE EVERYTHING ELSE, VOTE KICK ANYONE WHO DISAGREES.

I don't think the mentality will die without SE changing how they reward content, and I don't think the mentality is good for interesting content or new players (both new to that content and new to the game as a whole). It makes sense why players have it though, liking your time to be used effectively is entirely logical - and that is why I would like to see the reward go /up/ when you do more and not just be a nerf to speed runs (I mean you can nerf speed runs too, to really squash the mentality but I would like to see people be rewarded compared to now as well).

[Talraen]

I would love SE to take a stance against bare minimum speed running in a friendly way. In all content. By friendly I mean not messing up player's efficiency rate making the game as a whole slower to progress, but making it far more efficient to 100% content.

In other words, the speed run of now (bare minimum) would be less effective than the speed run patch I'd like to see where doing more is more efficient (players will always want to go fast but now they go fast doing it all, but new players will greatly benefit from this mentality of "do it all"). Also taking away the bare minimum encouragement will allow SE to make dungeons more interesting with designs that would normally get ignored because it "was" all about doing the bare minimum. Side rooms, shifting passages, puzzles, mutations, flash objectives, although especially on puzzles about that shifting/not always there aspect, a puzzle you always have to do will kill people's excitement (unless it is a incredibly well hidden reward to the very attentive, like a dev secret to test how long it takes players to figure out).

While I also hate the speed running mindset, I actually disagree with this idea. No matter how much or how little content is optional, there's going to be an accepted way that content is done after it's been around a while. It's just the nature of MMOs. At best, this would just mean everyone does everything, and at worst, it would cause nasty fights between people who just want to be done quickly and people who want the best overall reward for their time. There is a way to ensure everyone does everything... and it's to not have optional dungeon content. Which appears to be what they're already doing. Honestly, I think that's for the best.

[Shougun]

While I also hate the speed running mindset, I actually disagree with this idea. No matter how much or how little content is optional, there's going to be an accepted way that content is done after it's been around a while. It's just the nature of MMOs. At best, this would just mean everyone does everything, and at worst, it would cause nasty fights between people who just want to be done quickly and people who want the best overall reward for their time. There is a way to ensure everyone does everything... and it's to not have optional dungeon content. Which appears to be what they're already doing. Honestly, I think that's for the best.

Sure but that way is decided by what is most effective use of time, and it already makes fights. This would only shift the standard away from quantity. I disagree that it would cause any more issue.

Making every piece of content the most linear thing possible as the solution sounds rather boring, in terms of what could be possible.

[Talraen]

Sure but that way is decided by what is most effective use of time, and it already makes fights. This would only shift the standard away from quantity. I disagree that it would cause any more issue.

Making every piece of content the most linear thing possible as the solution sounds rather boring, in terms of what could be possible.

It's boring, but doing otherwise is a waste of dev work. When's the last time you saw someone do the side rooms in Sastasha in the duty finder? Or take the left path (or god forbid, both) in Toto-Rak? Or even go into the side rooms in Tam-Tara or Copperbell? I only sometimes succeed in getting people to let eggs hatch in Aurum Vale, and that actually is a much more efficient use of time. Similarly, no one gets the side loot in Wanderer's Palace, or really any dungeon unless it's literally three seconds out of the way or less (and sometimes not even then).

So what's the point of adding this content? All it does is get ignored by most of the community, and annoy those like us who actually want to explore the dungeons. Personally, I'd rather have no content to miss than be pressured to miss content.

What I do like to see to stop speed running is mechanics that punish it. However, even those tend to be totally ignored, especially once you're overgeared a bit, because people are impatient and don't really pay enough attention to mechanics in general to even notice.

[Shougun]

It's boring, but doing otherwise is a waste of dev work. When's the last time you saw someone do the side rooms in Sastasha in the duty finder? Or take the left path (or god forbid, both) in Toto-Rak? Or even go into the side rooms in Tam-Tara or Copperbell? I only sometimes succeed in getting people to let eggs hatch in Aurum Vale, and that actually is a much more efficient use of time. Similarly, no one gets the side loot in Wanderer's Palace, or really any dungeon unless it's literally three seconds out of the way or less (and sometimes not even then).

So what's the point of adding this content? All it does is get ignored by most of the community, and annoy those like us who actually want to explore the dungeons. Personally, I'd rather have no content to miss than be pressured to miss content.

Yea, and I tried to cover that (you're right that reward is very important). This is why I said you make it more efficient use of their time to do this side content, but also make it shift with that advantage. So the side room in Satasha could be a treasure room, a trap room, a mini boss (but again making sure efficiency = doing more content). Also the other point was simple (they have shown they can switch out entities on a map based on circumstances) changes that don't take much effort (well maybe a mini boss might), each one is telling players to explore but at the same time the truth is it is "optional" even though people will play it like its more mandatory. (Although that part also covered just making a dungeon varied by even making linear routes change sometimes, just so people go "What.. what happened tot he bridge we normally use?. . . I guess we'll go into this cave instead").

It plays on people's minds that its optional but not, while also allowing better variations - this is what happens with the traveling conversations (teleportating/mounts, even boss strategies). People do what is most efficient even if its not enjoyable, if you can make efficiency playing the content /more/ then you can do more things in that content that normally players would ignore entirely.

If you leave it as is, people will ignore all things to finish it faster - which is currently quantity quantity. You have less design freedom with leaving it alone, and you /can/ make things encouraged to complete more content per run vs how we have now.

Evaluating a content by the reward over time, if there are areas that are optional but make that reward over time better (or even much better) compared to bare minimum runs then people /will/ shift to doing that side content even though it is still optional. This allows you to actually design optional content again, rather than the always linear hallways we have now.

[Talraen]

Yea... and I covered all of that already. This is why I said you make it more efficient use of their time to do this side content, but also make it shift with that advantage. So the side room in Satasha could be a treasure room, a trap room, a mini boss (but again making sure efficiency = doing more content). Also the other point was simple (they have shown they can switch out entities on a map based on circumstances) changes that don't take much effort (well maybe a mini boss might), each one is telling players to explore but at the same time the truth is it is "optional" even though people will play it like its more mandatory. (Although that part also covered just making a dungeon varied by even making linear routes change sometimes, just so people go "What.. what happened tot he bridge we normally use?. . . I guess we'll go into this cave instead").

So, the side rooms in Sastasha are treasure rooms, that doesn't make anyone do them. And again, letting seedlings hatch in Aurum Vale is a huge benefit that costs very little time (literally several seconds over the entire dungeon if you do it right), and people often still don't do it, even if they're not level-capped. That directly disproves your entire premise.

For that matter, I keep seeing "speed run" strategies in Castrum that actually make the dungeon take longer. Here's a protip: Cid doesn't start moving toward the rear cannons until you take out the guys just past the front cannons. If you bring those guys to the back cannons, the fighting takes less time, but you have to wait longer for Cid, causing the overall completion time to be longer. Yet people still do it constantly. Because people are really not good at nuance or paying attention. Nothing I've ever seen in any MMO makes me think people are going to put any thought into a dungeon after the first few runs of it.

However, none of that even matters, because in a vertical progression MMO like FFXIV, you simply can't provide an evergreen incentive. Treasure? Will be obsolete by the next patch. Experience? Irrelevant for people running roulette at max level. Gil? If that worked as an incentive, tanks wouldn't be the only class that's ever offered preferred status in roulettes. Extra tomestones? Only worth the effort when the current relic weapon step is a tomestone grind. What, specifically, do you propose to offer that is actually going to make optional content permanently worth doing?

[Shougun]

So, the side rooms in Sastasha are treasure rooms, that doesn't make anyone do them. And again, letting seedlings hatch in Aurum Vale is a huge benefit that costs very little time (literally several seconds over the entire dungeon if you do it right), and people often still don't do it, even if they're not level-capped. That directly disproves your entire premise.
However, none of that even matters, because in a vertical progression MMO like FFXIV, you simply can't provide an evergreen incentive. Treasure? Will be obsolete by the next patch. Experience? Irrelevant for people running roulette at max level. Gil? If that worked as an incentive, tanks wouldn't be the only class that's ever offered preferred status in roulettes. Extra tomestones? Only worth the effort when the current relic weapon step is a tomestone grind. What, specifically, do you propose to offer that is actually going to make optional content permanently worth doing?

Most groups I've been in have let the seeds pop, so I'm not sure what you have but it at least in my experience not disprove anything - also unfortunately sometimes not everyone is there for EXP. The one time I had someone refuse to let them pop was because they were capped, and therefore their efficiency was directly hampered by waiting.

As for the second example efficiency is a value of time and averages, if people make the content easier to handle its to increase their efficiency (rather than having to deal with mistakes or discuss anything). I don't find it shocking nor do I mind they've done it, since people like "easy and fast". Speed running (the idea of maximum efficiency) will never die or go anywhere at least until we get computers to play the games for us lol. I'm strictly talking about bare minimum speed running as becoming the most inefficient use of your time (since I feel like this hurts design, and players) and 100% completion as the most efficient (but also suggesting variations and things to mix up that 100% idea, like a "mini" infusion of deep dungeons into regular dungeons - bit like Ferth just added below).

The Satasha treasure room as is not reward enough (yet) but I feel the design comes from a good heart (just needs improved); I've discussed the reward needs to be in context of the people in it. If I'm maxed I don't want some BS exp or 10 gil item (most chests early on are pretty bad lol). I addressed all of this already.

The reward must relate to the player, this is of course natural and you may have skimmed that part of my post (or I edited it while you were making a comment lol). In a simple term I addressed the side objectives via a token that could be transformed into a value you seek, like light, tomes, exp, gil, so that no matter your situation if you joined the content for something you're probably going to get it and maximum efficiency would involve taking maximum advantage of the dungeon. In fact things like lights could be based on the side content entirely, so finishing the dungeon only ensures you obtain your side rewards (this means high level players going back will always make sure new players get the full experience). For glamour, doing the side content would be the drop - so its already baked into just doing it. Of course the values of the reward received need to be considered based on the circumstance (like if you were in a roulette that put you in a low level content) or if you just queued straight up for Satasha unsynced (with some proper UI and simple color/tiers you could display that information well enough for an average understanding of whats what).

[Ferth]

Sure but that way is decided by what is most effective use of time, and it already makes fights. This would only shift the standard away from quantity. I disagree that it would cause any more issue.

Making every piece of content the most linear thing possible as the solution sounds rather boring, in terms of what could be possible.

It doesn't matter how well the content is designed if the goal for said content is to be run repeatedly. As long as grinding dungeons for tomes for gear is the chore it is then people will find and opt for the fastest way to get tomes with minimal effort.

The ultimate goal for four man dungeons, unfortunately, is currency to be spent on endgame tier items. Because of this the content is quite literally a job. It is something we spend our time on to earn money.

Creating actually interesting content that people want to experience would require a dynamic shift to how gear and dungeons themselves work. I'm not saying that is a bad thing by any measure, but I doubt the dev team will be doing this any time soon.

[Shougun]

It doesn't matter how well the content is designed if the goal for said content is to be run repeatedly. As long as grinding dungeons for tomes for gear is the chore it is then people will find and opt for the fastest way to get tomes with minimal effort.

The ultimate goal for four man dungeons, unfortunately, is currency to be spent on endgame tier items. Because of this the content is quite literally a job. It is something we spend our time on to earn money.

Creating actually interesting content that people want to experience would require a dynamic shift to how gear and dungeons themselves work. I'm not saying that is a bad thing by any measure, but I doubt the dev team will be doing this any time soon.

Which is why I was suggesting we make the most efficient activity "doing it all". I covered that in the other post (and also talked that all needs should be considered, including light farming). People will /always/ go for efficiency, that is unavoidable, but you can change the bare minimum level.

I agree in the current standard designing interesting things, especially "options", would be ignored - because of how content is rewarded. But they could change it so that bringing the dungeon to full completion is the most rewarding thing, then they open up making more interesting content as something they can do that wouldn't be a waste of their time.

[Ferth]

Which is why I said you make the most efficient activity "doing it all". I covered that in the other post (and also talked that all needs should be considered, including light farming). People will /always/ go for efficiency, that is unavoidable, but you can change the bare minimum level.

I agree in the current standard designing interesting things, especially "options", would be ignored - because of how content is rewarded. But they could change it so that bringing the dungeon to full completion is the most rewarding thing, then they open up making more interesting content as something they can do that wouldn't be a waste of their time.

Right, But what I am saying is this Dev Team won't do that.