MrHappy interview with Yoshi-p (Raid boss tiers, set bonuses)

[ToasterMan]

Well non-raiders do not need the best ilvl just to run some faceroll dungeons or 24man raids.
They should just not have the possibility to upgrade their lore items. Like non-raiders would care about 10 ilvl, that would give a little more rewards for raiders cause actually there is no point in raiding...

Even if non-raiders have the same ilvl they ain't abble to skipp soar

Here's something I want you to think about. If you need some sort of special reward to get you to raid...........do you actually like raiding?

[Ashua]

Here's something I want you to think about. If you need some sort of special reward to get you to raid...........do you actually like raiding?

Yes you do. Then there is no point to even raiding. You would do it once then that would be it even if you wanted to say you did it just to do it and would thus be a waste of development time for a mmo themepark.

What makes the carrot on the stick vertical strength scaling is based on having to grind it out til near completion right around when the next carrot comes out. SE imo would do better with a skill based mmo with maybe slight skill degradation to keep a slight grind on the game going like UO use to have in its heyday.

[Dzian]

They already had the ultimate carrot in Coil (brand new content with no easy option, exclusive gear and story) and people still didn't want to do it. It's time they accept that raiding simply isn't popular on this game.

raidings never been popular in any vertically progressive game. the rewards are to short term to justify the difficulty for the average gamer. if you look at horizontal games the endgames were massively popular.. almost 80% of the player base were doing COP in ffxi for example something like 2/3 of the player base did nyzul isle raid.. everquest was similar the raiding population was much higher. than any vertical game.

anywaysssss regarding set bonuses. while it sounds interesting I think the fact it's going to be limited to raiding gear suggests the set bonuses wouldn't be that powerful.. saying this because Yoshi has also said he doesn't want raiding gear to be more powerfull than tome stone gear as that would give raiders a big advantage across all content..

so if the set bonues are powerful enough it will create a big gap between the player base that Yoshi is trying to close.. and if the gap is that big it will alienate players. look at zurvan ex for example where there was a trend for almost all party finder groups to require ilevels impossible to reach for players not doing savage..

on the other hand though if the set bonuses aint that great then it's really not going to provide an added incentive for players to go after the sets as they won't be any better than the tomestone / current raiding equivelant. unless they make raiding gear worse before factoring in set bonuses but that seems kinda backwards

also if it follows 4.0 those raid gears with there set bonuses will follow the same fate as current teir gear has done.. 3.2 landed and raiders replaced there Gordian stuff with basic crafted gear of higher ilevel... same thin happened with creator in 3.4. raiders replaced there 240 midan gears with 250 crafted stuff before even attempting savage... makes the raid gear even more useless..

so yeah it'll be curious to see what they do with set bonuses. but it's not something i'm particularly interested in when gear is still gonna be junk in a couple of months soon as the next patch hits.

Well non-raiders do not need the best ilvl just to run some faceroll dungeons or 24man raids.:

Raiders don't "need" the best gear either because you have to actually complete the raid without that gear in order to get that gear. and having completed it without that gear it clearly proves they don't "need" it

and as I said above the raid tier gear isn't even used to enter the next tier. because soon as the patch lands theres better crafted gear available to everyone

[Talraen]

raidings never been popular in any vertically progressive game. the rewards are to short term to justify the difficulty for the average gamer. if you look at horizontal games the endgames were massively popular.. almost 80% of the player base were doing COP in ffxi for example something like 2/3 of the player base did nyzul isle raid.. everquest was similar the raiding population was much higher. than any vertical game.

Where did you get those numbers? In my experience in FFXI, the vast majority of people hadn't even gotten past the Promyvions, let alone "were doing COP" in any capacity. Unless you count repeatedly banging your head against the first set of content in the expansion as "doing it." And 2/3 of people doing Nyzul is ridiculous. You can't just take the numbers from a hardcore linkshell and extrapolate them to the whole population.

But yes, a higher percentage of people in those older games were raiders. But not a higher actual number. The number of people willing to raid hasn't really changed much over time, which is why newer and more popular MMOs don't focus first on raiding. Attracting non-raiders is how you make more money.

[Roth_Trailfinder]

everquest was similar the raiding population was much higher. than any vertical game.

How long ago did you quit Everquest? Because it has pretty much ALWAYS been a vertical game. Even expansions that did not raise the level cap had gear that was a vertical increase in power over the previous expansions' gear.

Raid Kael to get gear so you can raid Temple of Veeshan, or Skyshrine (depending on what faction you wanted to use, and one set was slightly better than the other). Use that gear, and complete the massively delayed key quest, to get into Vex Thal. Use that gear to raid the Planes of Power, which was an excercise in vertical raiding in and of itself. PoP culminated in the Plane of Time, which gear would take you into the Gates of Discord expansion (which I have heard no one beat before the next expansion raised the level cap from 65 to 70), which was another excercise in verticality in and of itself. Tacvi gear would help you out in beating the six trials to get into the Citadel of Anguish in Omens of War, and on and on and on.

Each expansion's end game gear was upgraded by the next expansion's gear. Group level gear was eclipsed by group gear, and raid level gear was eclipsed by raid gear, and raid gear was not eclipsed stat-wise by group gear for several expansions. Right now, the tier 2 group gear from Empires of Kunark is as good or better than the raid gear from The Darkened Sea (the Arx raid gear), a couple expansions prior to EoK.

[ToasterMan]

Yes you do. Then there is no point to even raiding.

Well here's the thing. Raiding is already technically pointless. The gear you get is gonna be replaced by gear you get at end game in Stormblood. The next even number patch's crafted gear outclasses the previous raid tier gear, unless SE changes that. Despite all of that.........people are doing creator.

You would do it once then that would be it even if you wanted to say you did it just to do it and would thus be a waste of development time for a mmo themepark.

What you mentioned was an issue that the hardcore minority face when they rush through content so fast. The midcore and casual raiders don't really face that issue. SE put the loot lockout in there so they couldn't just farm it in one week and unsub until the next tier.

[odintius]

I don't know I might actually give raiding a shot if gear changes happens, but ATM gear is boring as hell don't even care anymore when they reveal the new gear sets. Hopeful also they look into materia as well but this game is extremely vertical to even consider it really.

[Brannigan]

The game can barely even be said to have vertical progression because you throw away all your raid gear every time a new crafted set comes out. It's a ladder, but the bottom 3 steps get cut off every time new ones are added. I don''t want to raid for mounts and minions.
FFXIV has the worst sense of character progression I've ever seen in an MMORPG.

[Dzian]

Where did you get those numbers? In my experience in FFXI, the vast majority of people hadn't even gotten past the Promyvions, let alone "were doing COP" in any capacity..

Vanadiel Census There's one source. that shows 40% of players reached the last verse (end of COP) with roughly another 40% of players scattered at various points along the way. (this was 2009 while cop was still relevant i.e 75 cap)

was one regarding limbus salvage and other endgame stuffs but seem to have misplaced that but I don't think my numbers are far off.. Se was a lot more open about numbers and things back then..

But yes, a higher percentage of people in those older games were raiders. But not a higher actual number. The number of people willing to raid hasn't really changed much over time, which is why newer and more popular MMOs don't focus first on raiding. Attracting non-raiders is how you make more money.

see now this is interesting. if you put any merit on things like the lodestone census that someone on here does every so often.. the active player base of this game is actually lower than it was in ffxi. those census's typically suggest the active player base to be around 250-350k over the last few that I read through. by comparison XI maintained a playerbase of about 500k pretty steadily until abbyssea was released.

suggest then that the playerbases aren't actually that different yet the end game poulations are massively different. and has been shown several times on these forums in various threads many people would raid if they felt the rewards were worthwhile..

[TaleraRistain]

everquest was similar the raiding population was much higher. than any vertical game.

....what in the world? EverQuest is the grand-daddy of vertical progression games. The raiding population was high because you hit a hard content ceiling if you didn't raid. The new content was designed around the gear the raiders could acquire and was often way too hard for a non-raider to even attempt. Raiding permeated every facet of that game.