Raiders, why do you raid? None riders, why not?

[Nicodemus_Mercy]

I'll never understand when people say an activity/achievement they've engaged in/accomplished is suddenly "worthless" because it became easier with time/outleveling/outgearing. Just because those who came after had an easier time doesn't marginalize your achievements. If you did it when it was current/difficult then that alone is a bragging right that no one who comes after can ever match.

On topic: I used to raid in other MMO's for many many years. As I've aged I've become less willing to commit my time to a regular schedule. I prefer my freedom to play as I please and when I please.

Why I used to raid: I have a long term guild I am still a part of which has played (and raided in) several MMO's together. It doesn't really raid as a guild anymore, but we are still all close, not unlike a family. Raiding with these people was a great experience for many years in multiple games because there was a strong sense of camaraderie and support. We looked out for each other, became intuitive of each others play, and generally conquered all content set before us. We weren't the fastest, or the most optimal, but we got the job done. It was fun and rewarding in many ways that weren't loot related. On loot however, in most games of those bygone years, raiding was the only real way to gain character power past a certain point. People raided because they had no choice if they wanted to be stronger.

Why I don't raid anymore: Real life happened to me and my crew. I'm old and have health issues now. I can't handle the stress of high difficulty content as well as I used to. Friends had kids, moved away, acquired other priorities. I'm also quite fond of my freedom. I play when I want, I go afk when I want, I engage in whatever content I want at my whim. Being constrained by a schedule is anathema to me these days. Burnout is a big part of that. When games start escalating difficulty, they lose their defined "end" and that kills me. I don't want to clear Raid A and then have to "do it again but harder!", and then "do it yet again even harder!" only to be met with "I heard you liked higher difficulty in your raids so here's more difficulty with your difficulty!". To me it feels more obviously like a treadmill to keep me redoing the same crap over and over. Sure there's often higher end gear for more player power, but its just not worth putting up with. Other reasons include, competitiveness and just being sick of the ever more obvious treadmill as mentioned.

Like my initial comment about people who think their accomplishments lose all value the moment the masses can do it easier than they did, I find such a mindset toxic to a positive gaming experience. I engage in content, collect mounts/glamour/titles, and earn achievements because I want to, not to engage in a dick measuring contest. My self worth isn't predicated on comparing myself to others. Other little things like raider attrition, finding replacements, etc make high difficulty raiding a "not fun" experience for me. Being able to queue up when I WANT to, for something on the difficulty of Dun Scaith or my weekly Soul of the Creator, is the extent I'm willing to raid and no further. I'm not interested in beating my head against a wall for hours on end anymore. Those days are long behind me.

FFXIV is a breath of fresh air for many reasons. One of them being that the gear gap between raiders and non-raiders is so much smaller than in other games with raiding and that's a damned good thing IMO. It makes it so my player power isn't arbitrarily gated by content I don't want to engage in. I get to do the things I want to do and still become nearly as powerful as those who devote themselves to savage content. Sure I won't get the mounts/glamour/titles they do but that's ok, because I can still be about as strong in the content I do engage in. I don't raid, not because of a lack of incentive, I don't raid because I don't want to and I don't HAVE to in order to acquire player power. That's a big positive in FFXIV's favor as far as I'm concerned.

[Dzian]

Like my initial comment about people who think their accomplishments lose all value the moment the masses can do it easier than they did, I find such a mindset toxic to a positive gaming experience..

Really. many people would say the opposite is true. it's been proven that handing awards out to everyone devalues them in the long run... it's the same thing in every aspect of human life. the more common something is the less value it holds... and it's no different in games...

if content maintained it's challenges and rewards then players would rise up to the challenges if they wanted the rewards. the result there would be that the average skill of the player base would likely increase, and that can be seen as a very positive thing for the game and the entire community.

compare that to what we have now. where players can be terrible and still get everything. there's no strive for them to improve and that creates the huge skill gap that Yoshi has expressed concerns about. what the current system does is essentially promote laziness. why rise to the content when we can sit on our ass and let the content drop to us...... that massive skill gap is probably more toxic to a positive gaming environment because it actively rewards bad play and that skill gap is far more damaging to the game than keeping rewards behind a challenge that wouldn't get nerfed over time..

one could then argue that is this current environment that exists has fostered the " toxic no bonus" culture that exists within the game.. because of how large the existing skill gap between players is... and that impacts content on the whole. recent content such as zurvan normal for example is almost impossible to fail...

and because its impossible to fail there's no real satisfaction or reward for clearing it even at story level. and if the game isn't rewarding players won't stay playing.... which is again is not a positive gaming enviroment

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

Really. many people would say the opposite is true. it's been proven that handing awards out to everyone devalues them in the long run... it's the same thing in every aspect of human life. the more common something is the less value it holds... and it's no different in games...

if content maintained it's challenges and rewards then players would rise up to the challenges if they wanted the rewards. the result there would be that the average skill of the player base would likely increase, and that can be seen as a very positive thing for the game and the entire community.

compare that to what we have now. where players can be terrible and still get everything. there's no strive for them to improve and that creates the huge skill gap that Yoshi has expressed concerns about. what the current system does is essentially promote laziness. why rise to the content when we can sit on our ass and let the content drop to us...... that massive skill gap is probably more toxic to a positive gaming environment because it actively rewards bad play and that skill gap is far more damaging to the game than keeping rewards behind a challenge that wouldn't get nerfed over time..

one could then argue that is this current environment that has fostered the "no bonus" culture that exists within the game.. because of how large the existing skill gap between players is... and that impacts content on the whole. recent content such as zurvan normal for example is almost impossible to fail...

and because its impossible to fail there's no real satisfaction or reward for clearing it even at story level. and if the game isn't rewarding players won't stay playing.... which is again is not a positive gaming enviroment

This is really well put, and I'm glad you touched on that fact. In order for the community, and thus the game to truly grow, this has to change. I have hopes for Stormblood, but they are admittedly low.

[Nicodemus_Mercy]

Really. many people would say the opposite is true. it's been proven that handing awards out to everyone devalues them in the long run... it's the same thing in every aspect of human life. the more common something is the less value it holds... and it's no different in games...


if content maintained it's challenges and rewards then players would rise up to the challenges if they wanted the rewards. the result there would be that the average skill of the player base would likely increase, and that can be seen as a very positive thing for the game and the entire community.

compare that to what we have now. where players can be terrible and still get everything. there's no strive for them to improve and that creates the huge skill gap that Yoshi has expressed concerns about. what the current system does is essentially promote laziness. why rise to the content when we can sit on our ass and let the content drop to us...... that massive skill gap is probably more toxic to a positive gaming environment because it actively rewards bad play and that skill gap is far more damaging to the game than keeping rewards behind a challenge that wouldn't get nerfed over time..

one could then argue that is this current environment that exists has fostered the " toxic no bonus" culture that exists within the game.. because of how large the existing skill gap between players is... and that impacts content on the whole. recent content such as zurvan normal for example is almost impossible to fail...

and because its impossible to fail there's no real satisfaction or reward for clearing it even at story level. and if the game isn't rewarding players won't stay playing.... which is again is not a positive gaming enviroment

Maybe I am just weird then cause I just don't agree with this mindset. What might be easy for me may be challenging for someone else, but either way, what I do/accomplish/acquire has nothing to do with anyone else. I don't compare myself to others to determine the worth of my accomplishments. I simply appreciate them for the doing of them.

If you don't find satisfaction from something because its "impossible to fail" I don't know what to tell you. Maybe you're just too good? What's easy to you may be quite difficult for others.

I find satisfaction in all kinds of things, both easy and difficult. I do however tend to shy away from difficult things that are repetitive like weekly savage raiding. When I engage in something difficult its to accomplish a specific goal. Like say getting a mount from an ex primal. Once I have that mount, I'm not going back with any sort of regularity, unless I agreed to help other people get mounts as well. But my satisfaction from accomplishing that goal is not diminished in any way if they make it easier to get later on. My accomplishment is not diminished because what I do has nothing to do with what someone else does. If you let the worth of your accomplishments be dictated by how it compares to others you're basically engaging in a never ending dick measuring contest. I can't live like that.

I do agree that if a game isn't rewarding people won't keep playing... but the same is true if the content is either too difficult for the majority of the population... or even if its just so tedious that most players don't want to be bothered with it. Game developers have to develop the lion's share of content for the average player. Without the "scrubs" to keep the lights on, the elites won't have a game to play at all.

I heal in FFXIV primarily because none of the dps classes are appealing to me... and that stems from the complexity of several of them. I'm good at healing though, good enough to do savage raids if I were so inclined. I just don't want to cause I'm not really interested in that sort of content. As for dps, I can't handle the finger gymnastics many of the dps classes require and positional attacks beyond "be behind the enemy" is just too hectic a playstyle for me (so yea Monk is out of the question). Bard was somewhat appealing until Wanderer's Minuet entered the equation. BLM less so, but became far worse with Enochian, which is thankfully going away in SB. I'm holding out hope that Red Mage might be the dps job for me, but I'm not optimistic. I'm not "skilled" at finger gymnastic/hectic/twitch play. That's why I avoid games with "action" combat like Tera. Where I do have some skill is in my situational awareness and ability to quickly learn encounter mechanics. I may screw up the first time but I rarely repeat a mistake once I've seen how a mechanic works. Maybe there's a lot of people like me that just don't gel well with how many of the dps classes are designed, and since dps is the driving force of encounters in this game, that might be why there's so many "bad" dps out there, not because they are "lazy" and waiting for content to "drop to them".

Maybe you're really good at that sort of gameplay, but not everyone is and not everyone can be. I will never be good at that sort for thing. It's the same reason I could never master playing the piano. I just don't have that type of coordination... and I'm almost certainly not the only person out there like that. That's why I heal. It's something I am good at and I still manage to dps quite a bit while keeping my groups alive. Heck I've even been praised for doing good dps as a healer.

Just to be clear though, players can't "be terrible and get everything"... at least not unless they are being carried by others. "Bad" players can't get savage content down when its current.... and if they go back and do it an xpac later... who gives a flying fart in space? Your accomplishment isn't diminished in the slightest by that and if you think it is I say there's something wrong with the way you think. "Bad" players aren't getting into progression statics, or at least not for very long. Sure "bad" players can get an ilvl approaching that of "good" players but player power is ultimately a goal everyone wants to achieve, and a large gap between those who engage in raid content and those that don't is definitively not healthy for the game. So the "good" players will just have to be satisfied with a slight ilvl advantage, cool mounts, titles and glamours, and getting all that stuff while its current while the "bad" players have to wait till they outlevel and outgear the content and hope that mechanics still don't cockblock them just to get some of that out of date glory.

Again if your sense of accomplishment is predicated on how it compares to others, then you're doing it wrong as far as I'm concerned.