Anyone else think the cap of 900 for tomes should be the future cap?

[Bourne_Endeavor]

For a few maybe but I don't think it'd be that many people. look at the primals if you so desired you could have every drop from an ex primal in the first day. yet you still see dozens of parties for them in the party finder months after there release..

also lockouts tend to kill incentives as well... for the most part once my tomes are capped or my expert is done and ive got any weekly loots. that's it i'm done. there's no incentive to do anything else....

And what keeps them there? Mounts. Take away the birds and ponies and every single EX Primal dies within a month or two. You cannot put mounts in everything otherwise people stop caring since it's no longer anything special.

What keeps you playing say, 2-3 months after the patch? Most people will have obtained all the gear they want, tried Savage if so inclined and have no use whatsoever for crafted, normal mode raids or the 24 mans. All three basically die as a means for gear progression.

players did midas savage got 240 gears. second 3.4 dropped many of em crafted straight into 250 before even setting foot in creator savage. so what was the 240 good for really.. wasn't good for midas cos by time you got it you'd already beaten it. wasn't creator because a lot of it was replaced with 250 as soon as 3.4 landed...

Welcome to why FFLogs is so popular. Although, I will say, it'd be nice allowing raiders to have a leg up on the next tier. Unfortunately, the casual crowd doesn't appreciate it. We now have two separate threads on tomestones and a number of people hate the idea of raiders getting any sort of advantage despite them having to put in a lot more work for their gear. The devs solution seems to be a third difficulty tier meant entirely for challenge. That... is admittedly pretty cool.

[Zojha]

You cannot put mounts in everything otherwise people stop caring since it's no longer anything special.

Mhm...
We have mounts in Savage, in EX primals and PotD (higher floors) already. We also have them in Beast Tribes. We sometimes even have them in the MSQ.
What even is missing? NM raids and dungeons?

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Mhm...
We have mounts in Savage, in EX primals and PotD (higher floors) already. We also have them in Beast Tribes. We sometimes even have them in the MSQ.
What even is missing? NM raids and dungeons?

No one does Savage on content for the mount. It's a secondary reward with a significantly higher drop rate (50% at release, iirc. 100% afterwards). The rest can either be bought or are guaranteed. They aren't intended as incentives. Are you really suggesting they make it so the only reason to continuously run stuff once you've bought the now unlimited Scripture gear... is mounts?

[Pintsized]

Are you really suggesting they make it so the only reason to continuously run stuff once you've bought the now unlimited Scripture gear... is mounts?

For some people, yes, not everyone is fixated on phat lewt as the be all and end all of MMOs.

I couldn't care a fig about gear's ilevel or anything else, gear is a gating mechanism for content access, nothing more .. and content gives REWARDS that people are interested in and lots of people are interested in mounts and other stuff.

[Zojha]

They aren't intended as incentives.

:|

EVERY reward is intended as incentive. There's no reason to reward something otherwise. But that's beside the point.

What I'm questioning is the mentality of:"If it's everywhere, it's no longer anything special and therefore not worth attaining." and that people would stop caring as a result. Mounts already ARE almost everywhere. They already "are" no longer anything special. By that logic, people should have stopped caring about them "already".

[Pintsized]

What I'm questioning is the mentality of:"If it's everywhere, it's no longer anything special and therefore not worth attaining."

ABSOLUTELY AGREE .. I d couldn't care a fig how many others have something that appeals to me, I'm not trying to be a special snowflake, I use galmours/mounts/titles that I find amusing or whatever and I really don't care if every other player in the game has them too.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

:|

EVERY reward is intended as incentive. There's no reason to reward something otherwise. But that's beside the point.

What I'm questioning is the mentality of:"If it's everywhere, it's no longer anything special and therefore not worth attaining." and that people would stop caring as a result. Mounts already ARE almost everywhere. They already "are" no longer anything special. By that logic, people should have stopped caring about them "already".

Uh, no, they aren't. Some rewards are essentially "you did a good job." When it's guaranteed, that won't incentivize people to do it. Hence why no one does Savage unless they're already raiding. The mount is nothing more than a "Hey, I got this thing". Gear is what they're after.

A lot already have. The one site that actually tracks mount collection shows it's not nearly as popular as people like to believe. Putting them in even more content won't make people do it anymore than they already do.

[Zojha]

Uh, no, they aren't.

Yes they are. That is precisely what rewards are - a tool to control behavior via incentives. What do you think a "Good Job!" is supposed to achieve? To reinforce the behavior you show and incentivize you to do it more often/keep at it. Incentives simply don't always work. Many firms give you a monetary incentive to work overtime or night shift, but people simply often prefer to chill at home and sleep at the times they're used to. Likewise, many people have so much money, they stopped caring about it and instead want prestige and promotion options - monetary incentives fall completely flat for those people. Similar goes for any other incentive - including mounts, gear and anything else.

Further, you are complete and utterly wrong in every way when you say that a guaranteed reward doesn't serve as incentive. As a matter of fact, a guaranteed reward will always have a higher incentive function than an identical reward tied to probability - People are more willing to do a given task for 100$ than a chance at attaining 100$. The chance at not obtaining the reward requires the reward to be set higher to achieve the same incentive as a guaranteed reward. How much higher depends on the risk sensitivity of the individual. Likewise, people do temporal discounting when judging rewards - an apple today is worth more to people than an apple in a year. Delayed rewards also have to be higher to be worth as much as immediate rewards. Individual preferences also play a role here - an apple might be worth more than a pear to one person and vice versa to another. That's one of the reasons rewards frequently fall flat.

It's a well studied field. Go educate yourself. It's far too expansive to put it in a forum post.

That said, I can only speak for myself, but I personally never cared for mounts as such in the first place - I only care for a select few mounts I like the look of. Likewise, I don't care for glamour as such - I care about specific pieces because I find them pretty. And I care naught for stats - They're solely a means to an end.
Any reward SE puts up will be judged by my personal preference filter and will fail to fulfill its purpose if it is not judged favorably. If it manages to suit my preferences, it will be subjected to scrutiny of temporal accounting and risk accounting. My behavior will only change if after those steps, the effort to reward ratio still seems "worth it" to me, in which case, the incentive succeeded. Otherwise, it fails.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

snip

Poorly worded in retrospect, I'll admit. Nevertheless, the crux of the argument is putting mounts in everything as a replacement to tomestone grinding won't achieve the desired effect. Incentives inevitably have deprecating value. The easier and less prestige they are, the less likely people are to bother. Taking the story into context, you have do it. The incentive isn't a mount, but unlocking content and/or raids. Likewise, your example with Savage doesn't properly equate because it isn't the mount people are after. They want gear. Does this apply to everyone? No. But it's a failed incentive if the vast majority of people aren't concerned by it. Hence why shoehorning mounts into everything as a replacement to the tomestone grind we do now won't work.

(Now if we go back to only getting 450 a week, given it takes 5,760 tomes to gear one class, so 11,520 tomes are needed to gear two classes, at 450 a week it would take 25.6 weeks to gear two classes vs 12.8 at 900 a week.)

This was the math that someone did , 25.6 weeks is insane and ridiculous considering all the job choices you have like if you think thats a fast time you have more free time on your hands than I do. And the main reason for me to want all jobs leveled as Ive stated I do not play a one job fits all in content if I did that Its possible I may have never cleared some stuff.

That applies only if you do nothing else except run dungeons and EX Primals, none of which require nearly as high level gear. You can also omit weapons and settle on primal ones for your alt jobs. PotD made getting those even easier. If you want to gear up multiple jobs more quickly, you do have another option: Savage. Like Seekified said, playing a job and having full 260 or 270 are two entirely different things.