Raid gear set bonus

[Shougun]

Problem is, adding things like this really doesn't add much "choice" in the long run. We actually have a small amount of choice in our current lootsystem, you can mix and match between the tomestone, 24-man raid, and 8-man raid gear to make the best use of substats that can outweigh the smaller main stat bonuses, or one can stick to just one of them, or pick a stat they prefer to use over a more meta-approved mix. In a system with unique bonuses, the same "choice" still applies, either you use what players have mathematically determined to be the optimal loadout, or you don't. While one could theoretically offer multiple playstyles with a system like that, if the bonuses are large enough to alter how one plays it just makes the issue of gear sticking around all the more apparent. If you go for a specific type of build (Like, say I decide to pursue gear that enhances my regens and stoneskins so I can play like the old 1.0 WHM), either a lot of gear needs to offer the same augments at regular intervals (which removes some of the appeal for why people want a system like this, I feel), or you're going to once again have the issue of holding onto gear for years because the new gear just doesn't offer stuff for your build.

In my opinion, systems like this don't offer more choice. In a way, they offer less. I can recall playing through games like Borderlands, Diablo, or Torchlight, all games which emphasized more unique buffs over just raising base stats, and easily 99% of the loot I found was complete and utter trash to me. It didn't have the specific unique buff I wanted, so off to the vendor it went. Hell, level on gear was often irrelevant, I didn't care that enemies were dropping level 40 gear when I'd be losing out on the sweet minion damage of my level 15 gear. And this was with games where the stats on gear is rather random and a lot of stuff shares models. FFXIV kinda prides itself on allowing fashion, on new gear being an opportunity to showcase new models and whatnot, so gear is kinda more expensive for them to make. I feel it'd be rather disheartening for SquareEnix to make a new raid tier, but because the augments don't fit into the builds people are using literally nobody runs the content. While new content these days doesn't offer much excitement, I still feel it's better than looking at all the rewards and going "I can literally use none of this."

As far as your final point on the loot system, the problem is that in a game that emphasizes sidegrades, you kinda NEED low drop rates. I played FFXI for years back at the 75 cap, and I kinda got an understanding for why the loot system worked the way it did. See, if items had a high drop rate, folks would farm up their items in a week and move on to the next item on their list to assembling their BiS loadout. Problem is, what do you do about new players joining the game? You often can't rely on people solely doing content with you out of the goodness of their own hearts, especially if it's any challenge to get through. So, the best way to do that is to ensure that when new players join, there's still players who are running it for their own gear as well... hence the low drop rate. However, when you combine a low drop rate for each content, and spread it out across needing to do many different pieces of endgame content on a regular basis (and most likely even content you don't need anything from, just to "pay back" folks who went with you on content they didn't need stuff from)... the end result is you need a heaping bucket of time to really get anything done. Time which a lot of modern gamers just don't have.

Now, that all said, there was a system brought up earlier in the thread that I'm a fan of, and that's the FF9 system. Tales of Berseria did a similar system for those who only play newer games. The idea is you get a piece of gear with a unique trait on it, then you use the item for content until you master it and BOOM, you have access to it permanently. I imagine such a system would be more like FF9's, where you'd need to allocate traits with each trait costing a certain amount of points (we even currently have a system like that, hello PVP abilities!) With such a system, you'd still upgrade your gear regularly and thus negate the useless gear problem, and even more I imagine there would be a lot of players who'd be interested in grabbing gear that doesn't fit their current build and mastering the ability "just in case".

A lot of the issues listed I feel only appear in specific iterations of the system, I know it may be confusing but I have/was talking about many different versions at once since I'm not demanding a specific one.

For example you said people will use really old gear because it's better, for the regens or whichever effect/theme. But if you had used power creep or self nerfing to prevent that then the only issue is the player, not the system (in this vision the system would still be vertical). The system is saying "hey its worse, you're making a bad decision" and the player does it because they want all the abilities to be working effects. Now I wouldn't say someone doing that is really that unusual but purposefully letting it happen can start to be messy to balance (not impossible but new challenges). The notice about tome vs raid of course will become harder to tell, because calculating a word problem vs one flat number is of course extra but I don't believe is enough a reason to stop abilities which are far more interesting to me than choosing between accuracy i've capped or more damage stats (in general the choice between the raid vs tome isn't really a choice anyways, its still pretty straight forward one BiS setup). You could promote choice by carefully crafted end result but different journey style abilities on the same piece of gear across the two systems though, so a player would have to choose between a regen buff or a cure buff which in the end do very similar things but its just how you'd like to play (sometimes you'll fail to balance it and the choice will vanish ofc, but that existed as a problem already - I guess it was just easier to think about in the past). Although I'd like to be clear and say I'm not suggesting abilities give you more choice, only if they design for a horizontal system or make abilities so potent that you may want to keep them around outside of their ilvl, or use another system like FFIX (keeping stuff out of their ilvl I would suggest only happens for Legendary like items, but of course that brings up its own pros and cons - which we can just look at WoW to know what they already are lol).

Similar thing I'd say to your rate of dropped items, they do not need to be rarer just because they have an effect. Keep exactly the same loot system and it would be just fine, so long as you don't allow much older gear to supersede newer gear. People will see the ability items in a greater light probably, but so long as they kept the same rate and replacement of gear they don't need to suddenly make getting gear slower -unless you're doing a horizontal system which you brought up but again I've been talking about 5+ versions at once just because I don't really care which version appears, you can make abilities work in a vertical system but it just becomes very important that newer gear replaces the older ones like you'd expect then. Addition of abilities doesn't require items to no longer be frequently received, that decision relies on other systems like horizontal vs vertical and related rewards in said content (like if a dungeon had one good item and nothing else vs a dungeon with all the good items).

I'm not saying the issues you raises cannot be issues, but that they'd only be issues under specific circumstances and visions of systems being used - like the drop rate, it doesn't need to be touched unless they begin to approach horizontal systems. Doesn't have to be "drop" could be token, upgrade, w.e rate - so people don't go insane, WoW is actually using a building % chance on failure for all legendary items now so that'd be another example. Of course certain items in WoW have value longer than one iteration, but again its all about how the systems marry each other.. So to me the issues you brought up are things to be mindful of but in no way prevent ability items from being present, they're just concerns to note while designing the system. Not that I'm suggesting you said that, but it did seem like you were phrasing it like "this is why it can't work" but at least imo, those issues raised (while good) could be accounted for and perhaps that's exactly what you were doing, just raising issues to make the best system possible ~ Me, I was just shotgun firing in hoping SE grabs one of the pellets and makes it happen lol. If you're just sharing concerns and concepts then I actually really enjoy these conversations but I'm not so great gleaming intention from text lol, my concern was like you thought I was saying "this idea is issueless and implement it exactly like this!", everything will have it's pro and con but to certain people it is worth or not .

To me ability effects are so cool I'd be happy if gear choices were made even more linear to make it fit, although I know in WoW and other games (like FFXI) they've allowed some or a lot of choice so I'm not opposed to that either - I only want to see abilities exist and am non particular in how it happens lol- and as you mentioned FFXI has its own issues with the horizontal low drop rate thing.

Like you've raised about the other systems, FFIX has issues we might as well raise too. With FFIX it would become a bit like a free form talent tree system, although I've actually suggested something akin to this as well before because I thought it was pretty cool lol.

Some things I see that would be nice to immediately adjust for is A. would things like +20% attack speed on critical be shared with things like Naul's Spear Cannon ability swap? It might be beneficial to create a sort of slotting control so players don't go obnoxious on either type or be forced as much. Doesn't have to be this but for example a sphere grid, where you drop in your earned abilities through the FFIX like system;however, in the specific spheres have specific restrictions like "ability" "stat" "on hit" "legendary affix" and in this way SE allows you to customize and has an expectation of what will happen. This is also means expectations for the players too - you won't be forced to have all stat spheres, all ability spheres, or have more than one legendary. It wouldn't be end of the world if you could just AP up and no restrictions, but it might lead to scenarios where you may be significantly lopsided, an issue to some more than others. The other issue is that if you put a really great ability behind content and that content is now really old, its a bit like where you were talking about in a horizontal system if the drop rate was too high then players would be SoL. Of course as I responded to before this is more of a concern than a permanent problem, for example you could make it so around the time a content dies new more easily obtained items have that ability on them too (like buried in a beastmen series, crafted, NPC quested).

C. One of the harder things to fix would be player expectation "why dont you have Naul's Spear, Gaius's dwarven hand cannon, Leviathan's Scales, and Omega Pew Pewer???!?! Vote kick!". It would be a bit like what SE is trying to get away from with the whole "you don't have fast cast....? wtf?" lol. Now of course that's not an issue to some people, but that issue would be harder to dodge - doing things like the gear in other content once that content is dead would help but you'd still get people who didn't grab them. Its why I think an aesthetic FFIX/Sphere Grid/Merit/Talent system would be great though, things to do and collect, but ultimately doesn't matter if you didn't go get them before.

Whatever SE does it can't be random, but abilities can work in a strictly vertical, horizontal, rare, common, perma, temporary system that's all I'm really gunning at. There is no reason besides development time and people wanting simplicity that abilities couldn't work (simplicity as in do I want 5 more parry or 5 more accuracy, not what is the power usefulness of "15% shield for 5 seconds when a monster casts a knockback effect" I dont know if I should use that or +20 parry halp!??). Oh and while I like set bonuses I would be disappointed if that's the only time ability traits appeared on items.

[Naunet]

C. One of the harder things to fix would be player expectation

I want to say this wouldn't be an issue because it's never been much of one in other MMOs, but FFXIV's playerbase is so ridiculous that I'm not so sure... -_-;

[Zojha]

Whatever SE does it can't be random, but abilities can work in a strictly vertical, horizontal, rare, common, perma, temporary system that's all I'm really gunning at.

Yes, it can. But the issue is and remains:
Every choice is a real choice if and only if it is balanced with and against other choices.

The HOW is irrelevant. Special effects and raw power stats can yield equivalent results - in that case, the choice is a balanced one and you can pick either. If any one choice is superior over others, it becomes a non-choice. And if the difference between the two is significant, then the superior choice becomes community enforced. At what difference exactly a choice becomes enforced depends on the community.

So if SE was to introduce special abilities, they'd need to convert the usefulness of it into raw stats for comparison. For example, if you have a 20% chance proc at dealing 1000 damage on autoattack, you can calculate that this adds 200 damage per autoattack on average, calculate the added DPS from that and then compare it to the weapon damage/main stat value that would give just as much DPS to an average player, put the item with the proc and the one with the raw stats on the same tier with the same item level and be done. Result? Exceptional players would go for the raw stats, bad players for the proc and mediocre players would be able to freely choose either.

[Urthdigger]

A lot of the issues listed I feel only appear in specific iterations of the system, I know it may be confusing but I have/was talking about many different versions at once since I'm not demanding a specific one.

For example you said people will use really old gear because it's better, for the regens or whichever effect/theme. But if you had used power creep or self nerfing to prevent that then the only issue is the player, not the system (in this vision the system would still be vertical). The system is saying "hey its worse, you're making a bad decision" and the player does it because they want all the abilities to be working effects. Now I wouldn't say someone doing that is really that unusual but purposefully letting it happen can start to be messy to balance (not impossible but new challenges). The notice about tome vs raid of course will become harder to tell, because calculating a word problem vs one flat number is of course extra but I don't believe is enough a reason to stop abilities which are far more interesting to me than choosing between accuracy i've capped or more damage stats (in general the choice between the raid vs tome isn't really a choice anyways, its still pretty straight forward one BiS setup). You could promote choice by carefully crafted end result but different journey style abilities on the same piece of gear across the two systems though, so a player would have to choose between a regen buff or a cure buff which in the end do very similar things but its just how you'd like to play (sometimes you'll fail to balance it and the choice will vanish ofc, but that existed as a problem already - I guess it was just easier to think about in the past). Although I'd like to be clear and say I'm not suggesting abilities give you more choice, only if they design for a horizontal system or make abilities so potent that you may want to keep them around outside of their ilvl, or use another system like FFIX (keeping stuff out of their ilvl I would suggest only happens for Legendary like items, but of course that brings up its own pros and cons - which we can just look at WoW to know what they already are lol).

Similar thing I'd say to your rate of dropped items, they do not need to be rarer just because they have an effect. Keep exactly the same loot system and it would be just fine, so long as you don't allow much older gear to supersede newer gear. People will see the ability items in a greater light probably, but so long as they kept the same rate and replacement of gear they don't need to suddenly make getting gear slower -unless you're doing a horizontal system which you brought up but again I've been talking about 5+ versions at once just because I don't really care which version appears, you can make abilities work in a vertical system but it just becomes very important that newer gear replaces the older ones like you'd expect then. Addition of abilities doesn't require items to no longer be frequently received, that decision relies on other systems like horizontal vs vertical and related rewards in said content (like if a dungeon had one good item and nothing else vs a dungeon with all the good items).

I'm not saying the issues you raises cannot be issues, but that they'd only be issues under specific circumstances and visions of systems being used - like the drop rate, it doesn't need to be touched unless they begin to approach horizontal systems. Doesn't have to be "drop" could be token, upgrade, w.e rate - so people don't go insane, WoW is actually using a building % chance on failure for all legendary items now so that'd be another example. Of course certain items in WoW have value longer than one iteration, but again its all about how the systems marry each other.. So to me the issues you brought up are things to be mindful of but in no way prevent ability items from being present, they're just concerns to note while designing the system. Not that I'm suggesting you said that, but it did seem like you were phrasing it like "this is why it can't work" but at least imo, those issues raised (while good) could be accounted for and perhaps that's exactly what you were doing, just raising issues to make the best system possible ~ Me, I was just shotgun firing in hoping SE grabs one of the pellets and makes it happen lol. If you're just sharing concerns and concepts then I actually really enjoy these conversations but I'm not so great gleaming intention from text lol, my concern was like you thought I was saying "this idea is issueless and implement it exactly like this!", everything will have it's pro and con but to certain people it is worth or not .

To me ability effects are so cool I'd be happy if gear choices were made even more linear to make it fit, although I know in WoW and other games (like FFXI) they've allowed some or a lot of choice so I'm not opposed to that either - I only want to see abilities exist and am non particular in how it happens lol- and as you mentioned FFXI has its own issues with the horizontal low drop rate thing.

Like you've raised about the other systems, FFIX has issues we might as well raise too. With FFIX it would become a bit like a free form talent tree system, although I've actually suggested something akin to this as well before because I thought it was pretty cool lol.

Some things I see that would be nice to immediately adjust for is A. would things like +20% attack speed on critical be shared with things like Naul's Spear Cannon ability swap? It might be beneficial to create a sort of slotting control so players don't go obnoxious on either type or be forced as much. Doesn't have to be this but for example a sphere grid, where you drop in your earned abilities through the FFIX like system;however, in the specific spheres have specific restrictions like "ability" "stat" "on hit" "legendary affix" and in this way SE allows you to customize and has an expectation of what will happen. This is also means expectations for the players too - you won't be forced to have all stat spheres, all ability spheres, or have more than one legendary. It wouldn't be end of the world if you could just AP up and no restrictions, but it might lead to scenarios where you may be significantly lopsided, an issue to some more than others. The other issue is that if you put a really great ability behind content and that content is now really old, its a bit like where you were talking about in a horizontal system if the drop rate was too high then players would be SoL. Of course as I responded to before this is more of a concern than a permanent problem, for example you could make it so around the time a content dies new more easily obtained items have that ability on them too (like buried in a beastmen series, crafted, NPC quested).

C. One of the harder things to fix would be player expectation "why dont you have Naul's Spear, Gaius's dwarven hand cannon, Leviathan's Scales, and Omega Pew Pewer???!?! Vote kick!". It would be a bit like what SE is trying to get away from with the whole "you don't have fast cast....? wtf?" lol. Now of course that's not an issue to some people, but that issue would be harder to dodge - doing things like the gear in other content once that content is dead would help but you'd still get people who didn't grab them. Its why I think an aesthetic FFIX/Sphere Grid/Merit/Talent system would be great though, things to do and collect, but ultimately doesn't matter if you didn't go get them before.

Whatever SE does it can't be random, but abilities can work in a strictly vertical, horizontal, rare, common, perma, temporary system that's all I'm really gunning at. There is no reason besides development time and people wanting simplicity that abilities couldn't work (simplicity as in do I want 5 more parry or 5 more accuracy, not what is the power usefulness of "15% shield for 5 seconds when a monster casts a knockback effect" I dont know if I should use that or +20 parry halp!??). Oh and while I like set bonuses I would be disappointed if that's the only time ability traits appeared on items.

Well, it's less of a "This idea is stupid!" and more a "Game design is complicated and this is why they can't exactly just put in effects like this easily."

You're right in that they COULD implement things like this into a vertical progression system. A lot of the cons that I mentioned only crop up if gear doesn't get replaced, that's what causes newer gear to be invalid upon release and leads to horizontal progression schemes that require low drop rates to keep people still doing content. The problem is that when you add in ability augments the balancing becomes MUCH more difficult to do, especially since you may need to not only balance the new gear coming out to ensure it's an improvement over the lower level gear, you ALSO need to keep an eye on balancing low level gear that may have some unforeseen synergy with newer equipment. Adding in such a system not only makes items harder to balance on an individual level, but also increase how many items they need to balance at a given time. I know when the difficulty of balancing has been brought up before, people tend to say "Well just do your damn jobs and work on it SE!" I don't think they're quite grasping how much harder it is. And the unfortunate downside is if they fail to balance it properly, it leads to all those downsides I've mentioned before.

Now, as far as the ability sharing in the FFIX system idea, a thought did occur to me. Considering that these abilities would come off of gear, an easy solution would be to have each ability still tied to the slot that piece occupies, and only be able to equip one piece per slot. So, in this sort of system, if the +20% speed on crit and spear cannon swap both come from weapons, then they wouldn't be able to both be used at once.

As an aside, I actually really enjoy debating about this kind of stuff. Game design fascinates me. However, I also understand that development time can be a limited resource and game design can often be an ungodly mess even before adding in additional features. So, I tend to err on the side of solutions that are easier to implement, and try to help my fellow players understand why certain much asked for features might not get implemented very soon.

[Shougun]

Yes, it can. But the issue is and remains:
Every choice is a real choice if and only if it is balanced with and against other choices.

Definitely~ And in part why I think it will probably add an extra layer of challenge for the devs.. but even then I still enjoy seeing them haha. Of course before we still had these conversations of BiS and like "oh you don't need that tome x y z, because raid q r s do this" but it was much simpler comparisons and materia at some points could help out. So I wouldn't say the issues are brand new, they're just harder to understand sometimes - which I think you did describe well especially at that last paragraph.

I know some people might be like "but if its harder to understand I dont want it!" but I guess for me, it's still worth it (due to previously listed reasons like being able to experience the lore of an item in action, change of pace of things you've been doing for hundreds of hours already, and just the fresh fact that you get to read and attempt to comprehend something unique rather than +1 strength). If people want it to be massively simple though may I suggest we just treat all gear like costumes and no gear has stats beyond it's ilvl. At least currently to me comparing skill speeds and strength is about as fascinating as judging gear by ilvl lol (not that much), that is of course an imo~.

Most of WoW's abilities I think could be readily converted into effective damage/healing as well, which is probably how they view them when making balance decisions. Some of them are more difficult to fairly gauge but those are fun too (but are usually designed to be flavor then), for example:

Norgannon's Foresight: Standing still for 6 sec grants you Foresight, allowing you to cast while moving for 4 sec. This duration begins when you start moving.

Might be a bit harder to evaluate than:

Rethu's Incessant Courage: When an enemy is within 8 yards of you, you heal for 2% of your maximum health every 3 sec. When no enemies are within 8 yards of you, your movement speed is increased by 15%.

Although there is something to consider is that they may want specific items to be defacto BiS (like they may already do that sometimes, there have been curious stat arrangements on some gear that feels like they intended for it /not/ to be BiS), I'm not sure how the community feels about that - probably mixed, but its part of why I'm not really describing one specific system and rather that it could work under any system (so long as it isn't shoe horned in and rushed into a doom train lol).

Well, it's less of a "This idea is stupid!" and more a "Game design is complicated and this is why they can't exactly just put in effects like this easily."

You're right in that they COULD implement things like this into a vertical progression system. A lot of the cons that I mentioned only crop up if gear doesn't get replaced, that's what causes newer gear to be invalid upon release and leads to horizontal progression schemes that require low drop rates to keep people still doing content. The problem is that when you add in ability augments the balancing becomes MUCH more difficult to do, especially since you may need to not only balance the new gear coming out to ensure it's an improvement over the lower level gear, you ALSO need to keep an eye on balancing low level gear that may have some unforeseen synergy with newer equipment. Adding in such a system not only makes items harder to balance on an individual level, but also increase how many items they need to balance at a given time. I know when the difficulty of balancing has been brought up before, people tend to say "Well just do your damn jobs and work on it SE!" I don't think they're quite grasping how much harder it is. And the unfortunate downside is if they fail to balance it properly, it leads to all those downsides I've mentioned before.

Now, as far as the ability sharing in the FFIX system idea, a thought did occur to me. Considering that these abilities would come off of gear, an easy solution would be to have each ability still tied to the slot that piece occupies, and only be able to equip one piece per slot. So, in this sort of system, if the +20% speed on crit and spear cannon swap both come from weapons, then they wouldn't be able to both be used at once.

As an aside, I actually really enjoy debating about this kind of stuff. Game design fascinates me. However, I also understand that development time can be a limited resource and game design can often be an ungodly mess even before adding in additional features. So, I tend to err on the side of solutions that are easier to implement, and try to help my fellow players understand why certain much asked for features might not get implemented very soon.

I readily admit I'm not looking for the easiest solution :P, although I wasn't looking for any solution in specific but just trying to open as many gates as possible so SE can walk into any one of them lol. I am not opposed to easier solutions :P. I can definitely tell we're not at odds now, originally I wasn't sure if you were trying to suggest it /can't/ be done and I was like "well.. it can.. but its harder" and that's pretty much exactly what you're saying too. .

I would also add that I very rarely have any sort of deadline expectation - which I don't really mention but I imagine the standard assumption people have for those who want things is "NOW" which is not really my thing. I'm not against difficult solutions but am aware harder more expensive things take a lot more time, and everything is already pretty complex (I'm not master at what goes on, but I do understand that even simple things can take a lot longer than what an individual may expect - like if I in an indie setting wanted to change some icons and text vs international massive company). If they didn't do it for another expansion year I wouldn't really care, but I absolutely do want to see it at some point (for all the reasons already listed a few times now haha).

I /love/ collecting things so a collect gear for glamour and affixes would pretty much mean I'd always have something to do that I like, if I don't want to go work on relic I can just go fill out my item log some more lol. That and collecting lore affixes is awesome, so I'd have the great gear with a story and then an affix with inspiration. /drool.

[Dyce1982]

Why not just add an extra slot to which you can gain an item to add the gear bonus you would like? Something akin to the job crystal slot.

[RitsukoSonoda]

Considering how much BiS mixes and matches gear, I'm not really sure how well this would go over.

I would actually welcome this because simply because BiS is nothing but crunching numbers on a paper to min/max the most desirable stats. Having a set bonus that offered bonuses that weren't just simple numbers on paper but additional traits, effects, or non standard stat card bonuses would make people think more on how they want to gear their character. It was this kind of gear build flexibility I liked in FFXI and currently feel like FFXIV would be better if it were added.


However I'm also one of the people that feel like SE went a bit too far when they went the route of simplifying the game and as such it could do with some of the complexity of the previous MMO being brought back.

[Penthea]

Set gear looks fun on paper but it's a nightmare to balance. Had more than enough of it in WoW. Don't want to go through set bonuses carrying or failing people again. It was so demoralising when it felt like how well you played didn't matter if you didn't have a set bonus or if someone else had theirs.