Multiple Job Roles Idea

[Neophyte]

What balance issues? Both works perfectly and are fun to play.

You can't give SMN a stronger Ruin, while SCH's ruin remains the same. Same for Ruin2, Bio, Bio2, Miasma, Miasma2, Shadowflare and Energy Drain..

Buffing/Nerfing SMN's old abilities also always affect SCH.

It's a balancing issue if you can't change a job without changing a 2nd one.


This is a soooo obvious issue, I'm baffled that people are actually arguing this fact.

[SendohJin]

It's a balancing issue if you can't change a job without changing a 2nd one.

This is a soooo obvious issue, I'm baffled that people are actually arguing this fact.

SMN is not currently unbalanced because those things can't be changed. They don't have to change the potency of any of those. instead of buffing Ruin they can buff Ruin III, who uses Ruin anyway? they don't need to buff the 3 main dots or shared AOE spells they can buff Fester, Painflare and Deathflare instead.

you cannot and should not attempt to balance every job at every level cap, that's a waste of time.

it's obviously a very minor issue which is why the only thing someone really complains about is Leeches and they have nothing to say about Lv 50-60 spells and abilities.

[loreleidiangelo]

SMN is not currently unbalanced because those things can't be changed. They don't have to change the potency of any of those. instead of buffing Ruin they can buff Ruin III, who uses Ruin anyway? they don't need to buff the 3 main dots or shared AOE spells they can buff Fester, Painflare and Deathflare instead.

you cannot and should not attempt to balance every job at every level cap, that's a waste of time.

it's obviously a very minor issue which is why the only thing someone really complains about is Leeches and they have nothing to say about Lv 50-60 spells and abilities.

The fact that jobs get their own unique abilities themselves should be a sign that the class system failed, IMO. Broil and Ruin III could have just been Ruin III for ACN except the devs realized there was no decent way to make the ability work for both SCH and SMN. By saying "just tweak job abilities" you're already admitting defeat by saying that class abilities can't be adjusted to preserve some semblance of balance.

See also: why Physick sucks for SMN because it scales off of SCHs primary stat instead. If your solution to making Physick a viable self-heal for SMN while not breaking SCH is "just pile MND on the SMN jobstone until it works" then you have already lost. (Or alternately, "make it scale off INT for SMN only", as that is also a change at the job level and not the class level.)

[SendohJin]

The fact that jobs get their own unique abilities themselves should be a sign that the class system failed

who is debating that it didn't fail? we know this when DRK, AST and MCH launched without them. just leave them alone and let them die.

Broil and Ruin III could have just been Ruin III for ACN

you're going to pretend they added things to classes that are not ACN in 3.x?

[loreleidiangelo]

who is debating that it didn't fail? we know this when DRK, AST and MCH launched without them. just leave them alone and let them die.



you're going to pretend they added things to classes that are not ACN in 3.x?

Maybe I didn't explain myself well. I meant that if the class system was a success they wouldn't have dumped it, they would have continued adding class abilities post-30. If your argument is that SCH/SMN don't need to be separated from ACN...well, I think they SHOULD, if only for consistency, but if they don't it's not like the situation with them is unmanageable currently.

Sorry if we misinterpreted each others' points.

[Neophyte]

SMN is not currently unbalanced because those things can't be changed. They don't have to change the potency of any of those. instead of buffing Ruin they can buff Ruin III, who uses Ruin anyway? they don't need to buff the 3 main dots or shared AOE spells they can buff Fester, Painflare and Deathflare instead.

you cannot and should not attempt to balance every job at every level cap, that's a waste of time.

it's obviously a very minor issue which is why the only thing someone really complains about is Leeches and they have nothing to say about Lv 50-60 spells and abilities.

And if you want to lower DoT damage of SCH?
What if you want to give SMN a self heal and don't want to waste a job ability (and therefore just get rid of his Physik)?
What if you want to get rid of SMNs rez?
What if ylu want to chanhe some base skills like they did with almost every other job by now?

All things SE can't even consider right now.

[Ama_Hamada]

And if you want to lower DoT damage of SCH?
What if you want to give SMN a self heal and don't want to waste a job ability (and therefore just get rid of his Physik)?
What if you want to get rid of SMNs rez?
What if ylu want to chanhe some base skills like they did with almost every other job by now?

All things SE can't even consider right now.

Always thought it was weird how one dps can raise, make them all raise or none at all.

[Ariane]

And if you want to lower DoT damage of SCH?
What if you want to give SMN a self heal and don't want to waste a job ability (and therefore just get rid of his Physik)?
What if you want to get rid of SMNs rez?
What if ylu want to chanhe some base skills like they did with almost every other job by now?

All things SE can't even consider right now.

Actually they can lower potency on DoTs for only SCH if they really wanted to. They could make Physick scale with int for SMN. They could disable in combat resurrection on SMN if they wanted to.

You know they can alter skills for one job and not have it effect the other job that shares with it because Summon and Summon II spells summon different things for SCH and for SMN. They disabled res for only ACN/SMN in PVP, but SCH can still use it. Yoshida has even said they can do this kind of thing. He said that the system was set up so they could give gladiator the dark knight soul crystal and it would be able to alter skills like disable the enmity bonus on the weapon skills. That would make sense they have it set up this way because their original plan was to give all the classes more than one job.

[loreleidiangelo]

Conjurer didn't get Stone III. Truly a failure of the class system.

That's pretty much exactly what it means, yeah. No jobs are given base class abilities post-50 likely because the developers did not like how the SMN/SCH split turned out. They have also said that they won't be making another split job again for balancing reasons, IIRC.

I think SCH/SMN are manageable NOW, but they weren't at level 50, and that's precisely why job development went the way it did with HW. We're still stuck with a healer that gets to DPS like a DPS job though if the devs don't do something about those ACN DoTs and/or Aetherflow. Or lower WHM/AST DPS costs accordingly.