On Xelphatol and the Actual Summoner.

[Silverquick]

Can someone explain to me what an "actual summoner" is? When I think of summoner, I think of the ones from ff3, 4 and 5...who were basically useless because I typically had all the enemies dead before I could finish casting one summon (Rydia would be the exception because she could cast other spells like summoner can on 14).

Ok fair enough... the closest representation to the Summoner.... actual job/class comes from a game called Final Fantasy Tactics.

Much like the Magicite from FF4/6 and the summons you could unleash.... they aren't and never were Pet Class based... that started in FFXI...

In reality they shared the Spells of the Blm and Whm.... and were an extension of both. Their Summons were nothing but flashier... more nastily powerful Nukes that affected the whole battlefield. Much like the upper level Limit Breaks for SMN does now. That was their thing...

No they were neither a Pet Class (Like FFXI) NOR were they a poison based DoT class like here...

In reality they were the flashier version of the Black Mage... and their spells affected the entire battlefield and were stronger.

Their Summon Spells could do multiple things depending on what was summoned.

Like Shiva was a Blizzard AoE nuke, Ramuh was a Lightning Nuke... Corbuncle was a Healing Nuke etc... they also had one summon that was a Bio based Nuke,

Then you had their master Spell which was Baphomet summon which was a lot like Teraflare.

So no, the FFXI model for the Summoner is incorrect also.

[AmalonStar]

As others have responded the smn job in most ff's they used both white and black magics and called in their summons for a big aoe blast of some sort.

I think ff X was the first game in which a twist was done with the smn job where Yuna would summon something and it woul stay on the battle field with it's own hp and you controlled the smn's actions.

For ff XI they further put a twist on smn making thier smn's pets that would follow them around adapting the job for a mmo where thier spells were all smn's and did all your dps with each smn's different abilities.

I loved smn and later in the game I do know smn's were looked for because of the attacks they were capable of for certain types of battles making it a quick and effective run.

[Silverquick]

As others have responded the smn job in most ff's they used both white and black magics and called in their summons for a big aoe blast of some sort.

I think ff X was the first game in which a twist was done with the smn job where Yuna would summon something and it woul stay on the battle field with it's own hp and you controlled the smn's actions.

For ff XI they further put a twist on smn making thier smn's pets that would follow them around adapting the job for a mmo where thier spells were all smn's and did all your dps with each smn's different abilities.

I loved smn and later in the game I do know smn's were looked for because of the attacks they were capable of for certain types of battles making it a quick and effective run.

I don't, they were incredibly weak in that game.


Blm, Whm, and Rdm were all a lot more powerful and needed in a party. I hear that eventually... later in the game after they seriously weakened the mobs and opposition in the game... and when party play didn't matter much anymore... they were finally ok... but they had to seriously downgrade the challenge in that game before they were workable. I could not believe in the beginning how you would have to put out that much effort to obtain your summons only to end up more as a second rate white mage. But there was a lack of healers in that game so at least they had a nich.

They just sucked in general... BLM put out a ton more power than they did. White Mages were better healers and Red Mages had a lot more utility... they were second rate at best.

The Summoners in this game... they're a different story... the Summoners in this game they're real AoE powerhouses.

Admittedly they are not like the Summoners in Final Fantasy any more than the Summoners in FFXI were... But at the very least... they are more akin to the Summoners of Everquest... as a true pet class and clear power advantage. They are at least very viable and powerful in this game.

I cannot say the same about the FFXI Summoner. Neither one of them are like a True Final Fantasy Summoner... but that Summoner would cause class balance issues with the Blm in this game... so we're not going to be seeing that one any time soon.

[Blueyes]

As far as I'm concerned, Summoner up until level 50 is basically Necromancer. It utilize spells such as Bio, Miasma, and Shadow Flare while commanding a weak minion. Summoner at level 60 is a major improvement as far as capturing the classic essence of the job. Calling forth a greater entity which subsequently leads to a powerful attack that affects multiple targets.

However, Summoner is still considered a pet job. As cool as it was to watch Summoner unleash Deathflare (Akh Morn) I couldn't help but notice that Garuda-egi didn't need to be in that video. The "egi" part of the job is something I believe still needs to be greatly improved to make them more formidable and integral to Summoner's kit.

[MagiusNecros]

Egi's are just glorified DoTs. It isn't a real pet class in any sense. Pet class would revolve around the pet. Not the caster.

[Neela]

Egi's are just glorified DoTs. It isn't a real pet class in any sense. Pet class would revolve around the pet. Not the caster.

oh yeah thats true for real.

the focus should be more on the pets/smns itself don't mind if its about variety of new egis, new stance finisher, new egi exklusive skills or a rework on the egi-mechanic at all (like potd monster pots). – but yeah that's the reason why so many smns are complaining or at least are sad about the current status of the cls: it's not about the pets... yesterday I just noticed that I forgot to recast Ruda after I wonder why my tranced dots haven't extended as usual... rouse and enkindle are fix parts of the rota but you won't notice if they come through if you don't have an eye on your egi at all.

so yeah more "power to the pets" pls :3

[Ageofwar]

It is absolutely, spectacularly untrue, and is based on a complete misconception. Spreading this lie as a counterpoint to any reference to XI's summoner is unhelpful at best and dishonest at worst. It is deeply irritating to read for a person who actually plays the job.

It's very true that XI's summoner very was badly balanced for a long time. Its support abilities and DD abilities were weak, its MP management was terrible, and it couldn't contribute as well in groups as a lot of other jobs. It shined in some areas - it was a niche soloist, for example - but there was a lot wrong with it.

The only reason it was treated as a healer is because it had a large MP pool and could (in XIV vocabulary) cross class Cure and Esuna at a basically acceptable potency. Even with these limited tools, it was really bad at that role. It had no native healing spells (beyond a couple of niche healing support abilities on a one minute timer), and healing was never an intended use of the job. In short, XI's SMN has never been a healer or support specialist. It's mechanically incapable of being a healer beyond a strange blip in what in XIV would be considered cross-class actions.

XI's summoner continues to develop and is in a fantastic place at the moment. It's still not a healer, and the vast majority of the mechanical problems are now repaired. It's a hybrid job with damage dealing and support options that are entirely based on summoning. It doesn't even have any native spells beyond its summoning abilities. Further still, summoners are the preferred damage dealing job for certain types of content.

I'm sorry if your only experience of XI's SMN was during the "dark ages" when it was quite literally broken.

I too am still a play ffxi and by the "Dark Ages" i'm guessing you mean in the last days of the FFXI community was still alive and kicking. The only thing that has fixed SMN and the similarly miss used RDM is that the ffxi community is dead, so unless you have a good LS you are solo everything which is where SMN and RDM seem to shine

[Jerbob]

I too am still a play ffxi and by the "Dark Ages" i'm guessing you mean in the last days of the FFXI community was still alive and kicking. The only thing that has fixed SMN and the similarly miss used RDM is that the ffxi community is dead, so unless you have a good LS you are solo everything which is where SMN and RDM seem to shine

Spoiler tags because I don't want to deviate too far from the actual topic.

By Dark Ages I'm referring specifically to the times when SMN was used as a healer because its native abilities were... not great, and subjob healing was the easy way to get to level 75. I'm not talking about the community, really, beyond the attitude of "SMN healer" that became so prelevant.

SMN has had a vast array of fixes over the years - improvements to blood pact potency and significant reductions to reuse delays, FAR better availability of pet-focused equipment (compared to there being nearly none in the past), Avatar's Favour being changed from being a terrible detriment to a valuable asset, etc etc. Of course we still need some of our BPWs updated, and there are other pet-related issues that SE has been classically slow to sort out, but I strongly feel that SMN is in a better place now.

I feel your frustration with RDM - SE have not been kind to the job. However, I had the fortune of attending a linkshell event as RDM only yesterday, alongside two SMNs no less. Take from that what you will about group content. I do agree, however, that the community at large tends to be very fixated on certain strategies that restrict access to certain jobs - unfortunately it seems like it's always been that way. I blame SE more than anything for not considering all jobs in content that's released, but that's a whole different can of worms.

I'm very aware that we're talking about SMN in a way that isn't strictly relevant to the topic any longer, so I'm going to stop talking at this point. Hope that's okay with you.

[Silverquick]

Egi's are just glorified DoTs. It isn't a real pet class in any sense. Pet class would revolve around the pet. Not the caster.

Well then....

I take it you don't believe the EQ Summoner and the EQ Necromancer were pet classes either then....

Because that's what they were... and if anything it was the FFXI Summoner that fits your description of not a pet class.... the original one couldn't even manage THAT much it even sucked as a DoT and couldn't protect you much... the EQ.... could though... it was that bad for the FFXI Summoner...

So no I don't get it... at all...

If we are going to use an example of a Pet Class the FFXI summoner would be the last one you'd choose.

At the very least the FFXIV Summoner can successfully make the level of the EQ Pet classes...... the FFXI Summoner couldn't even do that.

[Connor]

Personally, I think Summoner in the context of FFXIV is actually up there with Scholar / Warrior as the better designed jobs (in terms of skill interactions / job mechanics / etc).
I do agree that it doesn't feel much like a 'Summoner' in the traditional sense.

I don't think they should change the DoT / utility focus that Summoner has, but it would be nice to see more interaction with the pets. Right now you just kind of press Obey and forget about them unless they're dying. Rouse and Spur are great, but they don't really require any sort of interaction with the pet (it's not going to do anything differently because of those abilities). Or pressing their cooldowns in-between Wind Blade / the Ifrit one etc for more damage.

I think more abilities that involve both the Summoner and the pet would go a long way to making the class feel more 'traditional'. Abilities like Enkindle that gives more of a 'using the power of the primals' feel to the job.