Healers that don't want to DPS are like DPSes who refuse to move out of AoEs.

[Kaurie]

It's also worth noting that Stones 1, 2 and 3 will never be used equivalently to one another; they're tiers of one same move and aren't cast as 3 separate abilities on a mob like Aero/II/III. Lumping PoM and Shroud as part of a greater total towards DPS moves is also disingenuous, IMO - better to just remove that category from the total outright. In return we'll dump Stoneskin II off the healing list as it's redundant, leaving us with 14 healing moves out of 22 total - fairly higher than 50% as originally stated.

The number of moves is kind of irrelevant. If I have 30 moves, and I cast 3 DPS moves and 1 healing move in a pull, who cares that 15 of the unused moves were healing?

[bswpayton]

The

even still why is it so important to tell people what to do in a dungeon which maybe the only form of content alot of players are comfortable doing in the first place why can't people just bite the bullet and leave them alone

[loreleidiangelo]

The number of moves is kind of irrelevant. If I have 30 moves, and I cast 3 DPS moves and 1 healing move in a pull, who cares that 15 of the unused moves were healing?

Idk, two other dudes were making the argument and I just pointed out inaccuracies. I think the debate was something about the precision of the whole "why would you ignore 50% of your abilities" statement or something like that. DPSing moves obviously aren't that involved with healer kits or else I might not be so bored doing it, haha. But the problem isn't the number of moves, it's just straight-up healer design, so I agree with you there.

[Kaurie]

even still why is it so important to tell people what to do in a dungeon which maybe the only form of content a lot of players are comfortable doing in the first place why can't people just bite the bullet and leave them alone

Not really related to what I was saying. I already stated some pages back that I am of the stance that you should just let healers do what they want in duty roulette. Save the pressure for your static & friends.

Idk, two other dudes were making the argument and I just pointed out inaccuracies. I think the debate was something about the precision of the whole "why would you ignore 50% of your abilities" statement or something like that. DPSing moves obviously aren't that involved with healer kits or else I might not be so bored doing it, haha. But the problem isn't the number of moves, it's just straight-up healer design, so I agree with you there.

Indeed, I didn't follow the full debate tbh, and my reply was more to the debate than to you specifically.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

If a DPS job... ever comes out... that has even halfway decent... shields or regens... I promise they... will be... expected... to... use... them.

Funny... funny. Unfortunately, no dps with that kind of utility will ever actually be expected to use it. People don't want BLM's using Apoc, an amazing utility spell, because it interferes with their deeps without a proc. Similarly, no one expects or cares if a SMN use Virus or E4E, and pragmatically speaking, people don't even WANT MNK using Mantra.

Any class with that utility won't be expected or encouraged to use it under any circumstances, because 'MUH DEEPS'. Thanks for the chuckle though!

[SargentToughie]

Funny... funny. Unfortunately, no dps with that kind of utility will ever actually be expected to use it. People don't want BLM's using Apoc, an amazing utility spell, because it interferes with their deeps without a proc. Similarly, no one expects or cares if a SMN use Virus or E4E, and pragmatically speaking, people don't even WANT MNK using Mantra.

Any class with that utility won't be expected or encouraged to use it under any circumstances, because 'MUH DEEPS'. Thanks for the chuckle though!

That's not true at all. I don't know what groups you play with, but I've seen a ton of people get really mad at SMNs that don't use their single greatest utility, their battle res. As a Monk player, during A11S prog I was actually coordinating with healers, and timing my Mantra during high healer burst phases, like the DPS photon during pyretic, or that hell part in phase 4 where the 7 man photon comes out followed by two whirlwinds. My mantra became part of the rotation that our healers relied upon to clear the fight, whenever the healers stated that they needed it most. This is in addition to our SMN using virus on the Phase 4 Laser X sword so that our DRK could eat it without the WAR stacking with them.

Apoc is also an incredible tool that sees a lot of use whenever a player dies and needs protection during a boss's 'limit break' move where they smash the party. DPS that do not use their inherent utility should be instructed to start using their kit to the fullest of their potential.

[bardaboo]

Funny... funny. Unfortunately, no dps with that kind of utility will ever actually be expected to use it. People don't want BLM's using Apoc, an amazing utility spell, because it interferes with their deeps without a proc. Similarly, no one expects or cares if a SMN use Virus or E4E, and pragmatically speaking, people don't even WANT MNK using Mantra.

Any class with that utility won't be expected or encouraged to use it under any circumstances, because 'MUH DEEPS'. Thanks for the chuckle though!

you want another laugh? Heal an expert dungeon. Figure out how much spare time you could use to contribute dps. Then reevaluate your life

[bardaboo]

snip.

I'll give you the same advice. If this is your main character lvl 51smn. No healers. Lvl up a healer. Try it out. Then come back here. Instead of arguing semantics. Till then your contribution to this thread is irrelevant.

I'd love to see you get your class quests done without dpsing.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

you want another laugh? Heal an expert dungeon. Figure out how much spare time you could use to contribute dps. Then reevaluate your life

I have. I go AFK half the run spamming DPS spells with either a macro or one hand while browsing the forums, and glance up after 7/8 casts to cast a cure on the tank before semi-AFKing because healer DPS is $%@#ing boring and I'd rather be doing anything else. I just happen to be both short on time and not in the mood to tank. But yeah, let's support such lazy healing design.

[Laerune]

I think both sides make a good point. Healers that are not comfortable, should not be forced to dps, these players picked the role, because they wanted to avoid healing. On the other hand, we have content where damage to the party is not that high, this means that healers do not need to heal as much, inturn means that those healers unless they dps will just stand there doing nothing. The issue at the end realy is about content that either requires the healer to heal more or SE needs to put a disclaimer (something) at the character creation to warn players that even if they pick a healer, they are expected to dps at endgame.

Personaly, I am curious why we are avoiding the elephant in the room when it comes to these discussion. I hate to ruffle some feathers, but aside from healers able to dps during downtime, there is another reason why groups want their healers to dps and that is to compensate for low dps. Yoshida has said multiple times that when they design an dungeon/raid/trial, they do not take the dps that comes from healer into account, yet for the average group, unless the healer deals damage aswell, the dungeon/trial/raid run takes alot longer to complete.. Is it possible that the average dpser is underpreforming and this is why dps is required from the healer or is it realy about healers standing there doing nothing?

Healers should dps if they are doing nothing, but we should also talk about having the dps preform much better at their task.