Healers that don't want to DPS are like DPSes who refuse to move out of AoEs.

[Taika]

And where did that 20% come from? You evaluate what a healer does based on your own assumption, go heal for a bit yourself before talking.

I did Xelphatol back when it was a current expert dungeon as WHM (i249 back when higher item level gear was already available with Scripture tomes). As I was only healing, I was only active for 17% of the dungeon with over 35% overheal. I did not have to cast a single Cure spell during the pulls. The tank didn't even have any current gear for that patch.

Here's my original post about it:

Yesterday I did some testing on how it really is like to only heal in expert roulette, which I think is a good example because it's content probably ran by majority of player base this discussion is relevant to.

I queued to expert roulette as WHM and we got Xelpathol. In addition to me, the party consisted of a WAR who had never tanked the dungeon before (no endgame experience as WAR), a BLM (his Savage job, currently on A11S progression), and a DRG (no endgame experience as DRG). So quite a random party composition with people more or less familiar with their roles in that dungeon.

The WAR pulled as much as he could at the time (not knowing the dungeon as tank he failed this a couple of times) and I would only use my healing abilities. This was the result, my every single heal cast for the whole 21 min dungeon run:

- Regen x24
- Medica II x16
- Asylum x7
- Assize x4
- Cure II x5 (between pulls, not during them)
- Tetra x4

So in addition to Medica II, the only thing I actually had to cast in the whole dungeon was Cure II, which I did a total of 5 times (between pulls, not during them). Everything else was instant cast abilities. I also used Eye for an Eye on tank and sometimes Esuna, and I cast stoneskin on everyone between pulls.

Even with this little use of healing, my overheal was 35,9%, so the actual healing requirements for this dungeon are even lower. I was active 17% of the whole dungeon while the rest of my group members were active 72-77% of the dungeon.

This is a perfect example of the low healing requirements in the game and how it causes a huge activity difference between a healer who doesn't DPS and their group members. On that run I did not contribute nearly as much as my group members, in fact I was using /icam and doing /mandervilledance while they were actually making an effort. If it would have been the tank or a DD only being active 17% of the time and dancing and idling for the rest, they would have been removed from the party, but for me, some people would actually argue I was doing just fine.

I took a video of the whole run and uploaded it in case someone's interested. This is the final boss fight, during which the only things I actually cast were 3 Medica IIs. Other than that, I used Regen (4), Assize (2) and Asylum (2). Here's the direct link to the fight: https://youtu.be/jBgMe5uHPsE?t=17m17s

TLDR: Not DPSing as a healer means you're just being carried by your group members for over 80% of the dungeon time.

My question is, why is it good enough participation from a healer to only use 1-3 abilities every minute, while this would not be accepted for a tank or DD? The only argument I've seen for this for now has basically been "it's ok for them because their jobs are called healers", which just isn't very convincing.

[Atos]

... My question is, why is it good enough participation from a healer to only use 1-3 abilities every minute, while this would not be accepted for a tank or DD? The only argument I've seen for this for now has basically been "it's ok for them because their jobs are called healers", which just isn't very convincing.

Because people always take it to the next level and start demanding that you always dps when not healing. And as I've said before, you get new players that adopt that mentality from the get-go and start turd-flinging without a clue. If a healer does nothing else they'll dps naturally, or not, who cares. It's what this type of mentality evolves into that causes problems. I've played DPS, tank and heals in raids, and heal dps is never an issue if you just want to clear/progress through instance. It's only an issue when people make it an issue.

[Taika]

Because people always take it to the next level and start demanding that you always dps when not healing.

And what's the issue with that? As a healer, when no one is in any danger (and you should know it as all fights are scripted), what else is there to do but DPS? It's a choice of 1) DPS, 2) do nothing at all, or 3) do something useless (overheal or spam Stoneskin over and over or something). There is only one correct choice here (unless you're in a very specific situation in which the best thing you can do for your group is to do nothing or do unnecessary overhealing, which can happen, but is rare).

And as I've said before, you get new players that adopt that mentality from the get-go and start turd-flinging without a clue.

This is a slippery slope argument, and also a strawman. No one is advocating healer play that puts DPS before keeping your party members safe. The argument is, 1) when you know your party members are safe and don't need healing, do DPS, and 2) required healing in majority of the fights is so low that there is almost always room for healer DPS.

I've played DPS, tank and heals in raids, and heal dps is never an issue if you just want to clear/progress through instance.

Are you claiming that it's been possible in this game to complete Alexander Savage raids without any healer DPS when they've been released? Because I'd like to see a group like that for sure.

There is no alternative to play if you don't like DPS. Healer is the only job that fits that role. If you don't like pets and want to DPS, there are other options available to you.

Unfortunately, since every single job in this game is very DPS focused, if you don't like to DPS, this game probably isn't for you. There also isn't room for alternative play styles for any job in this game, since the design is so straightforward and there's only one effective way to play each job. You can't really play a pure support BRD or pure healing healer and be an effective party member even if you wanted to. You can ask for changes in game design, but there's no point in asking changes for "play styles", when current design doesn't allow for any.

[Kaurie]

Unfortunately, since every single job in this game is very DPS focused, if you don't like to DPS, this game probably isn't for you. There also isn't room for alternative play styles for any job in this game, since the design is so straightforward and there's only one effective way to play each job. You can't really play a pure support BRD or pure healing healer and be an effective party member even if you wanted to. You can ask for changes in game design, but there's no point in asking changes for "play styles", when current design doesn't allow for any.

Shrug, that's just false. This game allows for a wide variety of play.

From a design stand point, we have the director stating that healers should focus on healing and DPS if they want to, so it's clearly not required by design. It's a norm that the community placed, due to the low healing requirement of most content. As a healer, do I DPS? yes, all the time. I have about a 97% DPS 3% heal ratio in dungeons. Do I force this mentality on everyone? No. Let them enjoy the game as they want to. If they hate DPSing and want to heal, let them do it. It's only going to cost you 2 minutes of your time to let this other person enjoy their time. It seems like a small price to pay for me.

That said, you are in-part correct, that there is some straightforwardness in design. There are blatant issues of people countering this design, such as the infamous ice mage. However, the non-DPSing Healer isn't one of them.

I would say the biggest issue is the lack of non-DPS, non-Healer abilities that healers have. More CC/Support would be great. Alternative/Additionally, it would be great if more content was more demanding on healers. I really shouldn't be in cleric stance for 97% of an expert run.

[Atos]

And what's the issue with that? As a healer, when no one is in any danger (and you should know it as all fights are scripted), what else is there to do but DPS? It's a choice of 1) DPS, 2) do nothing at all, or 3) do something useless (overheal or spam Stoneskin over and over or something). There is only one correct choice here (unless you're in a very specific situation in which the best thing you can do for your group is to do nothing or do unnecessary overhealing, which can happen, but is rare).

A couple of issues with that. First, people start deciding for you when you should be doing damage without any clue of why you're doing what you're doing. Second is with the type of reasoning you employ, which seems common. Claiming they have a choice to say they have no choice.

This is a slippery slope argument, and also a strawman. No one is advocating healer play that puts DPS before keeping your party members safe. The argument is, 1) when you know your party members are safe and don't need healing, do DPS, and 2) required healing in majority of the fights is so low that there is almost always room for healer DPS.

I honestly don't see it that way. I've seen enough fresh lvl 60 DPS telling me that I should be dps'ing while I'm running out of MP healing an undergeared warrior in Deliverance or PLD in sword oath. Or party with 5 DPS, healer and one tank (most of whom are new) getting in every AOE then complaining I don't dps because they're not pushing phases and have to do mechanics.

Are you claiming that it's been possible in this game to complete Alexander Savage raids without any healer DPS when they've been released? Because I'd like to see a group like that for sure.

Perhaps not in that situation, though in that situation you'd be working it out with your static; it is not something people should be using as a guideline to demand that others play by their rules.

[Taika]

A couple of issues with that. First, people start deciding for you when you should be doing damage without any clue of why you're doing what you're doing. Second is with the type of reasoning you employ, which seems common. Claiming they have a choice to say they have no choice.

I honestly don't see it that way. I've seen enough fresh lvl 60 DPS telling me that I should be dps'ing while I'm running out of MP healing an undergeared warrior in Deliverance or PLD in sword oath.

Oh I think I see what you're basing your thoughts on now. I definitely think the healer should be the one to control their MP and amount of healing and DPS - as long as they're trying to use them in a way that's useful and helpful to their group. If a healer is new to the instance (or level 60 in content in general), it's perfectly fine if the healer doesn't deal much DPS at all, for example. In the situation which you described (with you trying to heal undergeared WAR etc.), you were obviously struggling with just the healing part, and no one should ask you to DPS there, that's just silly. The argument is, again, about the situations in which the healing part is easily covered, and there really is room for DPS. No one is asking for healers to optimise their performance, just actively participate like the rest of their team members when they're able to cover the healing requirements using only 1-3 actions per minute.

And yet everyone that supports the dps meta believes it's correct to ignore your responsibility above a bare minimum, to the point that a stray/unpredictable crit or an accidental misstep snowballs into a full blown raid wipe because neither healer wanted to do their job correctly and thought it was safe to halfass it.

You really like throwing those strawmans around do you. Once again, the argument is, you should first make sure everyone in your party is safe. Sometimes this can mean leaving your tank to 20% health - if you know nothing can crit her to death. No one has said it's alright to leave a tank in condition where a sudden crit could kill them. (I think you already know this though, and just enjoy trying to lead the discussion off its tracks.) It's all about knowing the fights and the amount of incoming damage - which is scripted - and combining those with your tank's gear and play style.