Dps As Healer

[Exiled_Tonberry]

My comment was ONLY about healing potency not the combination of healing potency and utility. No healer should have a harder time at their primary function.

You can never take just healing potency into consideration. You have to look at the entire kit when discussing balance.

These are the things I can agree with:
Nerf ASTs utility
Buff WHMs utility (could make it something unique to WHM I am sure SOMETHING can be created)

These are things I will not ever agree with:
Nerfing any healer's healing potency to be weaker than the other healers.

You'll NEVER change my mind so honestly no point in continuing which is why I stopped replying to you.

It's not like I don't get your point. All healers should be able to do their job, which is healing, equally. I get that. But when you add extra stuff on top of this requirement, you have to take into consideration what the other healer has to compete with the extra utility. Giving all healers the same potencies and same utility is going to lead to homogenization and make healers extremely boring to play, and I don't think anyone wants that.

Instead, giving them unique strengths that are different but still balanced would make all the healers feel fresh and give them all an identity.
Perhaps WHM can move away from a pure healer identity and go for something else. I remember someone talking about giving them spells that can lower damage from aoes, or spells that can reflect damage. Or even just giving them more spells like Assize, that works to deal damage AND heal/cleanse. Anything is better than just throwing them similar utility to AST and having them both play the same.

But, I think we have hit a wall in our opinions. All we can really do is wait and see what happens.
I only hope that SE doesn't opt to just make all the healers the same with different animations, it would eventually force me out of the healer role.

[Duelle]

look at gordias and skip soar.... that just made people want healers (and tanks) to dps more.

Gordias was basically the devs turning some knobs higher and changing nothing else. I'm talking about a combination of higher tank damage (meaning tank DPS hits a ceiling due to having to full-time Defiance/Shield Oath/Grit), MP constraints (meaning healers will have to learn to measure how much they cast so that they don't waste MP; this would incidentally mean nerfing or altering MP regeneration so that the name of the game becomes "kill this thing without dying and before the healers run out of MP"), possibly nerfed heals (meaning because you're healing for less per cast heal, you have to cast more heals to bring someone back to full HP; a bonus side effect is that other players in the group will have to learn to minimize their damage taken so that they don't waste healer MP or GCDs) and the inclusion of other healer duties (status removal is something that rarely comes into play for some reason, despite being a no brainer).

You can also force it via mechanics, which can go the way of buffs from using certain skills outside of Cleric Stance (ex: Aero granting a WHM with a 15% increase to Spell Speed while Aero's DoT effect is active on a mob, but the effect is instantly cancelled if you switch into Cleric Stance) or going ham the way Revelation Online's healer class has, where casting consecutive heals make their overall healing more powerful but they lose the bonuses if they start using damage skills.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Midcore/Average players will almost always take survivability instead of risky heals. Most players except the top tier will always take the easiest and safest way to a clear because speed/DPS numbers don't usually matter to them as long as clearing is possible; and mechanic skipping isn't even a viable option for most midcore groups even with AST buffs. There are full i270 groups with an AST in the party that still can't skip mechanics in A11S.

Zurvan EX is a good example of how the community's mind works. Skipping soar is safer so they almost always try to do that method. Tank LBing second soar is safer so even though they could do more damage to the boss they just LB that instead to survive. WAR's get locked out of parties because the safest and easiest way to a clear is to solo tank and WAR cannot survive demon claw while DRK/PLD can.

It is very easy to find reasons to ostracize a specific job if they cannot do something which increases clear chances and while I understand this also applies to WHM lack of utility I agree with adding utility to WHM to remove that issue.

In general I don't agree with anything that lowers any healer's healing potency. To me it is imbalanced and will cause rifts in the community because people don't like risk and people will start locking certain healers out of the groups just like what happened with AST at 3.0 because of their weak heals.

So we might as well agree to disagree because I have my own logic set already and nothing will be changing it unless SE can show me it will somehow work.

Given the push towards higher DPS, I have to wonder if survivability would pull ahead. Perhaps we classify midcore groups differently since what I would attribute to midcore is pushing mechanics and high DPS whereas hardcore is dedicated to the current meta, speed killing and world prog.

In any case, we likely won't agree. Nonetheless, I do appreciate the back and forth o different perspectives.

[bardaboo]

So instead of playing the game and focusing on you role , you decide to be as inconvenient as possible to your group!

Thats really great from you Im so proud of you , and all of the rest that thinks like that :P

Ur are really a great addition to the community :P

not :P

and standing around not dpsing because "its nurt meh jerb" is just as bad.

[Ilenya]

I physically cringe when I see a bunch of healers standing around doing nothing, or even worse, using various AoE healing abilities during the Life Gate DPS check during Dun Scaith. I make a point of /a'ing: "Isn't it amazing how there is literally 0 damage during this phase? It's almost like everyone has time to switch to their DPS stance! "

It's not about "every healer HAS to DPS", it's about respect. Queueing for multiplayer, team oriented content, and sitting there doing the absolute bare minimum, and this goes the 1 button DPS players too, is disrespectful to everyone else in that party.

For what it's worth, when I SCH Dun Scaith I use that time to get Stoneskin back up on everyone, prepping for the moves I know are coming. Having time to set up shields makes the next phase a little easier.

Granted, then I go back to DPSing, but still.

[AlphaSonic]

WHM being solo healer and AST + SCH forced to run together if they want to match the healing capabilities of WHM for content (not counting 4 man dungeons) wouldn't be such an unbalanced idea. As long as AST + SCH would be able to heal the same as solo WHM and provide the same utility/support/DPS as a 5th DPS. In a Meta with 3 healers and 2 healing spots it's probably one of the best ideas to solve the problem. Not the best, but not such a crazy one.

MOREOVER, it would solve the problem with people wanting/not wanting to DPS as healer.

WHM -> For people who don't want to DPS and focus healing (and maybe provide some utility?)
SCH + AST -> For people that want to heal and do something else rather than healing.

[Vorx]

What are you even trying to say? Your post doesn't make any sense.

Players are always expecting everyone to play their jobs the way they're meant to be played - no matter what job. It's about the most efficient way of playing a job. The way they're meant to be played is based on the current meta, which again is based on the game design: the available abilities, the battle design etc. In current meta, healers are expected to heal and DPS, tanks are expected to switch between tank and DPS stance, DDs are expected to use certain rotations to maximise their efficiency etc.

The requirement is the same for every player and it doesn't depend on your job: use your abilities in a way that's as efficient as possible in any given situation.

one reply to this, guess the attack dogs are taking the day off..

[Raven_Darkstar]

Honestly, healers just cannot win when it comes to this dps debate. At least not until and unless, SE changes either healer jobs or game design, to solve it one way or another. It doesn't matter whether you only heal, play according to the meta, or whatever combination of healing/dpsing that is most comfortable for you; There are always going to be people who will jump on you for it.

Just play however you wish. It's a game, it's supposed to be fun. I don't know about anyone else, but playing in a particular way simply because a so-called majority thinks you should? That's not fun. And for me personally, at least when it comes to content that I don't overgear/overlevel, or am not that familiar with; either at all, or as healer, trying to dps as much or more than I heal, just turns me into a bundle of nerves. And that in turn makes it far more likely that I'll mess up, and even worse, turns the whole dungeon into a tense, fun sucking chore.

That's not to say that I never dps. Nor is there ever an instance where I do nothing but heal. Neither do I overheal. At least not my definition of overhealing. To me, overhealing is casting a heal that would take the target above %100, and thus wasting mana and needlessly generating enmity. However, it seems some people think that anything that takes them away from their precious dps time = overhealing. To which I have to wonder; if you're so into dps, why do you even play a healer?

Sorry, but these phrases: "Heal as little as possible", "Have to heal", and "forced to heal" are completely counter to the primary role of a healer. And it's just disgusting to me that so many players think that healers healing is a Bad thing. Even worse are those spiteful people who deliberately go out of thier way to make the healers job difficult out of some assumption that they are being lazy. Do you people even bother to communicate? Or do you just assume that because they aren't playing the way You think they should, that they're lazy?

Obviously, I don't support people who actually stand around doing nothing, or jump around emoting and generally being obnoxious. But seriously, enough with this nitpicky, judgemental, my way or else attitude. Much as some of you would like to, you actually can't force the entire player base to play your way. You don't want to play with the baddies? You have a votekick button. You also have the ability to run with pre-mades. There you go, problem solved. No more badddies in your precious elite groups.


TLDR - Play how you want. Nitpicky, judgy people will hate on you no matter what anyway. Might as well have some fun.

[Vorx]

Raven_Darkstar

To true..

[loreleidiangelo]

To be honest, I don't actually see people wigging out in duties over healer DPS as much as the forums like to wig out about it. I encounter a fair share of non-DPSing cohealers in 8-man content and I DGAF and just let them do their thing. I encounter aggressive DPSers who barely contribute to healing less than that, but even then I pretty much don't wig out over that, either - I just adapt to whatever my partner is doing at the time and roll with it.

I'm passionate about it here because this is an avenue for feedback, and I like to let the devs know that while I'm not berating my fellow DFers over it, I dislike current healing design and I'd like for it to change. But I don't want to give the impression that I'm someone who routinely tells others how to play unless it's clear we're not going to be able to clear the content without them making adjustments in some way.