They Should Allow Old Seasonal PvP Rewards To Be Obtainable By Any Top 100/30 Voucher

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

I mean, they took my 2013 timed exclusive Snow/Lightning gear and hairstyles and put them in cash shop for new players (many of you including) to buy. Do you see me complaining about it? No. Because I'm not selfish and don't care if other peeople will enjoy it too. Not sure why others can't act this healthy way.

The difference is that you didn't compete for and win those items.

I've said it before but if they just make any Feast season rewards available through achievements later, that will kill the competition. Why bother competing for it if you can get it anyways without competing? Yes, people who love to PvP/enjoy the Feast are going to play anyways, but all that would effectively do is negate ranked queues. ESPECIALLY if they'd ever add 4v4 unranked. This isn't a matter of being selfish, at least not on the part of the Feast competitors.

I cited this before, but do you recall the Gordias raid tier only awarding 210 gear, but it was tuned pretty high? The raid scene took a huge hit, especially when the relic was introduced at the same level, THEN the Diadem was awarding 210 gear with stats arguably better than most of the 210 tome gear. It really upset the balance of things and further crippled the raid scene.

It's a matter of challenge and reward. Would Savage raiders raid if Alliance raids gave better gear? No. If guildhests awarded gear on par with dungeons, do you think people would run dungeons? No. This is no different; PvP calls not only for individual skill, but teamwork, and to a higher degree than most PvE content does except for raids. But where raids are a set, scripted event that calls for proper execution, PvP is dynamic and requires more effort and on-the-fly action/reaction. The Feast beyond that is the only structured competitive PvP mode with rewards. These need to remain in place as they are, or the effort put into the competition simply becomes not worth it.

[SuperZay]

Didn't knew people raid just for temporary, fast replaceable gear. Thought they like hanging with friends. Or want to push themselves to new heights. Having fun wiping and progressing. Gear is only a bonus but not a reason for raiding.

Likewise, if you are doing PvP only for rewards, you are doing it wrong.

[Imsoangry]

The difference is that you didn't compete for and win those items.

I've said it before but if they just make any Feast season rewards available through achievements later, that will kill the competition. Why bother competing for it if you can get it anyways without competing? Yes, people who love to PvP/enjoy the Feast are going to play anyways, but all that would effectively do is negate ranked queues. ESPECIALLY if they'd ever add 4v4 unranked. This isn't a matter of being selfish, at least not on the part of the Feast competitors.

I cited this before, but do you recall the Gordias raid tier only awarding 210 gear, but it was tuned pretty high? The raid scene took a huge hit, especially when the relic was introduced at the same level, THEN the Diadem was awarding 210 gear with stats arguably better than most of the 210 tome gear. It really upset the balance of things and further crippled the raid scene.

It's a matter of challenge and reward. Would Savage raiders raid if Alliance raids gave better gear? No. If guildhests awarded gear on par with dungeons, do you think people would run dungeons? No. This is no different; PvP calls not only for individual skill, but teamwork, and to a higher degree than most PvE content does except for raids. But where raids are a set, scripted event that calls for proper execution, PvP is dynamic and requires more effort and on-the-fly action/reaction. The Feast beyond that is the only structured competitive PvP mode with rewards. These need to remain in place as they are, or the effort put into the competition simply becomes not worth it.

Sorry for long post, but seeing some claims I just couldnt say nothing.

It's funny how you bring raiding into this discussion, yet you don't look at the whole image but only partially picking up arguments that would fit your claims. Let's talk about Gordias for a second if you want to follow that routte. Back in a day Gobwalker mount was something special. Raiding scene indeed took a big hit as majority of playerbase is (let's face it) pretty bad at this game. Back then I've been in a pretty mediocre group, yet we still cleared altough it took more than 80 hours. Something that we've been spending hours on is nowadays absolutely trivial and can be cleared by people who have genuinely no clue about mechanics in there. More so - gear that once was exclusive now is statswise outshined by any dungeon drops. Now let's move fastforward to Creator. My group did manage to clear within first ID and I was the first person on my server who'd ride A12S mount. These days, with all the gear being handed out for free even the most casual groups I know clear it weekly and mount that once meant something now is nothing special no more. This game has always been like this and will most likely remain it's formula till the very end. Does it stop people from grinding/raiding for stuff ? Following your logic that people won't do feast if rewards can be obtained in some other way, people shouldn't bother with any content as gear gets outdated and timed exclusive stuff eventually lands in the cashshop. Yet people play the game, FFXIV feels way more alive than ever (mostly due to cross world party finder). Reason why it happens is simply because people enjoy playing FFXIV and know that if they work on something they eventually get it in this game.

As hardcore raider, I'd raid even if guildhests were giving you better gear. I can asure you that pvpers in this game will pvp no matter what rewards are - living example being season 1 & 2 where rewards were not that exciting. Hell, those who prefer to pvp in this game were still queueing for frontlines, despite of absurd queue times (1 hour+)

Now, I didn't get hellhoud even though I've been in top100 consistently for a couple weeks. I've lost my spot during blind week due to few people throwing out matches and running to opponents base, some insanely unfair matchmaking (silver healer vs silver tank), and of course - in some matches I prolly could have played better, but still lost. I'm not crying even though I of course feel a bit sad that I didn't get nothing. Thing is - I know plenty of people who are pretty good at pvp and for sure did their best - yet didn't make it to top100. I wouldn't like to insult anyone, but there's totally a few people outside of top100 who are genuinely better than some who ended up getting the mount. What's also worth mentioning is the fact that some got mounts on alts as well. My point being - the feast isn't necessarily a fair competition if you ask me. I'm not even talking about matchmaking that can be broken at times. The fact we have no chat now, and can't coordinate strategy in game is complete nonsense. Everyone knows that pvpers know each other, grouping up on discord often being in same FC's n stuff. This gives obvious advantage if it happens that the game puts them together in the same party. Meanwhile, those outside of cool kids discord club, can't discuss nothing as quick chat feature is simply lacking. How anyone could consider this a fair challenge and competition is beyond me. Example of this you can see in frontlines when premade groups literally farm newbies, getting 20+ kills, completely annihilating opponents. Now - to make it perfectly clear - I don't claim that people from top100 don't deserve the mount. They totally do. All I'm trying to say is that it isn't always necessarily a fair challenge where those who are better win.

I really like the idea of being able to use vouchers to get past/any rewards. Let's say you dislike design of new rewards. You can still compete, make your way to top100 and get rewards you actually want. I see absolutely no downside of this.

It's really weird right now, that the feast has the only exclusive items that become unobtainable over time. Raid gear/mounts become trivial as times goes by due to echo and itemlevel/level increase. Event items land in the cash shop, even if it takes quite a long time (looking at you eastern cheery tree). If you wan't to change absolutely nothing, then at least introduce similiar rewards structure for raiders/crafters etc. How about a mount for 10 (or more, whatever) groups per datacenter who clear each raid tier first ? Would you consider world first race not being a competition worth giving any rewards ?

You also seem to be worried about queue times. Let me tell you something. If it wasn't GARO event, queue times would be dead as usual and once this event ends, you can be sure it'll happen (unless SE actually really revamp PVP and its rewards in this game). PVP'ers will for sure still play but queue times won't be nowhere near as good as they were within last few weeks. Reason for it is simply because PVP in this game has always been lacking. Everyone who ever played games competitively knows how much this game PVP is missing to be ever considered as esport. Sadly, SE is clearly daydreaming about FFXIV becoming one, and just like they ignore 70+pages thread about chat removal - they also ignore reality. Reminds me of Nintendo nonsense youtube policy. Everyone knows it's complete absurd - yet they keep doing it. I hope I'm wrong, and PVP in this game actually becomes a thing, but I just sincerely doubt it.

To sum it up. Make PVP good and people will for sure play it. Just look at any competetive game. Very few people have the skill to compete on well paid tournaments, yet milions play them. You're naive if you want to believe that FFXIV for some reason is lacking people competent enough/willing to PVP in this game (which I agree is dynamic gameplay but nowhere near as complexed as some would like to claim, with it's lack of job balance and whooping 2 maps). Instead of looking for sponsors SE, fix your game first and those will for sure appear along with people willing to play it. As for rewards, as I said already I like the idea of vouchers allowing you to pick up previous rewards. I see absolutely no reason to put timed exclusive rewards, while literally everything in this game becomes easier to get as times goes by/lands in cash shop. Simple fact that world/server first groups can't even get a title for their accomplishment and dedication (which often takes weeks of preparation and lack of sleep), yet those who end up in top 100 @ feast get stuff that will never be obtainable in any other way is just not right. Also - make those rewards account wide to eliminate one person getting more than 1 reward thanks to alts. Do the same about housing by the way. It's insane it hasn't been done yet.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

You're reading into it entirely wrong. And let's not sugarcoat things: I like to raid, I like doing stuff with friends. . . But I like winning and getting shiny stuff too. Why do you think nobody ran T3 except for progression? Only reason I ran it last was for Wonderous Tails; the same reason many people are bothering with older content again. However comma there are people that do things for the fun of it, like PvP. Before the chat ban, due to my work schedule making solo queue difficult to stay competitive in, I had my fun in 8v8s, and I don't get anything from that except the thrill of the fight.

Still, you've overlooked my point that if you offer two ways to achieve something; a hard way, and an easy way, people,generally, will choose the easy way more often than not. . . That's exactly why the Gold Saucer Garo gear was not offered alongside the PvP gear, even if it can't be dyed. Anyone who simply wants the gear likely would choose the less-challenging GS method.

EDIT: As I didn't see the lengthy response to me til after I posted this, allow me to address it directly.

What you feel as a raider, I've felt before too. It's simply the nature of the game that what was once difficult to achieve will become easy with time and gear, and I too was quite irritated with that back in the Coil days. Rarely if ever have I been first to get anything on my server, and I'm hardly bothered by that. I competed in all 3 Feast seasons and never placed top 100 despite my capabilities, and again, I'm okay with that. Fact is, there's ALWAYS going to be new stuff being added to this game. . . I think it's fine if you don't get everything you want, when you want it. Not only that, but knowing how much SE already is willing to bend over backward to deliver what people want, it really becomes a smaller issue over time (and as a quick side note: we have gotten nearly everything we've asked for til now, with the exception of the big-NO-by-Yoshida-himself in-game parser.) Our thoughts or opinions may differ in this regard, but at this point, my eyes are forward, not back.

If it's a matter of people asking for older rewards to be obtainable by fufilling the same requirements originally necessary for it, fine. That sounds fair. Asking for it via other means than the competition it was a reward for? No, sorry. Doesn't work like that. Life doesn't work like that. No Super Bowl rings for preseason/exhibition games. Call me harsh to say it, but AS someone who competed and didn't win, I feel I can speak on that matter. Unfair competition? Yes, it is. But that's out of your hands and my own. That burden falls entirely on SE to mitigate it. All we can do is compete honestly and wholeheartedly. I sympathize for those directly affected by cheaters, and I certainly defend the common sense that those cheaters don't deserve the reward because they didn't earn it fair and square, but where people who otherwise would not bother with PvP want PvP rewards given to them, especially competition rewards they don't want to/refuse to compete for, my foot is down and stays down when I say no. This however, I understand is a different case, thus I reiterate, if you're willing to compete and place top 100 in say, season 6 and want season 2's reward, sure, why not? You put the work in.

[Imsoangry]

Still, you've overlooked my point that if you offer two ways to achieve something; a hard way, and an easy way, people,generally, will choose the easy way more often than not. . . That's exactly why the Gold Saucer Garo gear was not offered alongside the PvP gear, even if it can't be dyed. Anyone who simply wants the gear likely would choose the less-challenging GS method.

If anything, then it's you missing the point of this thread which is to allow people to pick up past rewards with vouchers. Those still would have to be obtained by placing in top100/30 so how is this an easy way ? People didnt bother with t3 because it has always been boring as hell and had no boss in it. It's as simple as that. Honestly, getting Garo with MGP is for sure gonna be way harder (sanity wise) as it will require to spam those boring minigames that everyone at this point is sick of. Meanwhile u can get this stuff easily wheter you win or lose, playing frontlines and 8/8 and that's exactly what people do. If what u claim was true, everyone would wait till they add garo stuff into GS. Yet people don't wait but play PVP - as a matter of fact, PVP has never been as alive as it is now so please, if you're about to make arguments - make solid ones and think them through.

Just like you took raiding out of context and put it into this discussion, you bring random nonsense (like turn 3) and put it here, completely ignoring points I've made in my lengthy post and points that others have made.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

I'm sorry, with all the whining for things people didn't get, it's easy for it all to blur around here. . .

And perhaps you've missed all the undue hate and avoidance PvP seems to draw in this game, but fact is SE at least had the foresight to see that offering similar rewards via PvP and PvE would do little to attract people to PvP content, thus - with respect to the wishes of the creator of Garo - made the event items available through PvP first. I can say for a fact that there are people who still have no interest in PvP that do want Garo gear, and upon finding out it will be available through GS later, are simply waiting. Some were disappointed to find out that the option was not available at the start of 3.5, as previously advertised.

Furthermore, PvP was never dead. There's always been a community, however small. Again, I give SE credit for 1: Lifting GC Restrictions in time for a PvP-oriented event (and NOT because we asked for 3 years, but because it's in line with future plans, and they've admitted this). 2: Increasing Wolf Mark payouts for the sake of easing getting the event rewards. 3: Launching an event that would attract people looking for something to do during a catch-up patch - a time when traffic generally slows down, and especially before the next big addition to the game. Yes, PvP is active, and that's good. But MMO players are fickle by nature. I've made this point before, but do you remember when Hunts gave everything you needed but Atma? Do you remember what happened to instances and queue times? It was so imbalanced - and this was pointed out even in gaming news - that SE had to make a relic step that pushed people back into instances (the Nexus light farm.) This - if you wish to nitpick - is the valid argument I've made. Sure, you can run dungeons for tomes. . . or you could hunt. Raid and get a Sand/Oil of Time, if you had the skill to do it. . . or hunt. Compete in season for that season's reward. . . or just do it later, or even worse, grind out an achievement. Hard way, or the easy way. History, and gamers by nature, proves my point.

P.S. Raiding wasn't taken out of context at all, you just overlooked the my bigger point to make a barely relative one (but hey, I guess I did that too, so fair's fair). Saying T3 is boring is a matter of opinion, but let's not act like it was really all that valid of a portion of Binding Coil. It had no rewards, that's why it's skipped in Coil farms. Perhaps you or I might run it or any previous turns out of simple love of raiding, but again, let's not try to act like we don't understand the nature of MMO players. Doing it cause you love it only goes so far. Unless of course, you'll be competing in Season 4 because you just LOVE the Feast, right?

[Imsoangry]

I'm sorry, with all the whining for things people didn't get, it's easy for it all to blur around here. . .

I will have to disagree again. Let's start off with GARO event. There is a reason why SE did put rewards specifically in PVP. Reason for it is pretty simple - PVP was not active at all. Sure - some die hard fans would still play it but realistically - they made that complexed spectator mode for the feast and all that, yet literally hundreds people play. I remember week prior to garo event. Been waiting (during prime time monday) nearly 4 hours for ranked 4/4 pop. It didn't pop. Been often waiting more than 30 minutes for a single match, just to get almost the same people. . How is this not dead pvp ? It's also one of the reasons why I never bothered with pvp mounts prior to GARO event. Yeah - I've been occasionally playing frontlines since the very begining, but waiting 2 hours in queue during prime time, to get 24 man match, felt extremely unproductive. Now - you could argue that it wasn't dead as some were playing, but I'd say that census information regarding rarest mounts says otherwise (white ads being in top 3 rarest mounts in the game, even though it only takes 100 wins). You can try to defend it as much as you want, but queue times prior to garo event are not effect of my imagination but the truth. I don't recall (outside of initial launch of ARR frontlines) a situation in this game, where u'd get instant-5-10 minutes 72 man pops all day long. I mean, seriously - there's for sure some people who don't want to touch pvp and wait for GS version but I can already tell you, that it's most likely very few. Rest plays frontlines and 8/8 all day long as not only it gives garo gear - but other pvp related mounts as well. Again - if it wasn't the truth, you wouldn't be seeing 72 matches all day long and 8/8 popping almost instantly. Please don't deny facts.

Hunt reference you've made has absolutely nothing to do with the idea promoted in this thread and is not exactly 100% accurate. I remember pretty well how it's been back then and claims that you could just do hunts isn't the truth. You always wanted mix up of raid and tomes gear. It hasn't changed since then. Hunts while were way too easy way of obtaining gear upgrades, didn't kill raiding at all. It's fair and healthy for the game. Raiders get gear faster than non-raiders but over time non raiders are given a chance to get same itemlevel. You keep repeating that hard and easy way thingy. I'd say get back on planet earth alright ?We're talking FFXIV right now. Once again, we're talking about the idea of allowing you to pick up any rewards with any vouchers from 100/30. This is what this thread is all about. I'll repeat myself as while claiming that your point is proven, you completely ignored quite a big one I've made. Why no time exlusive rewards for world/server first ? Why we don't even deserve a stupid title ? I wouldn't consider this point "barely relative" as a lot of people ask for "real savage" mode and guess what - they consider adding third difficulty due to feedback. I wouldn't be surprised if it adds some glamour/exlusive rewards and if it remains itemlevel synced then it's fair to leave currect rewards structure for feast as it is. There is genuinely no reason though, to not allow people to use vouchers to get past rewards. It's as simple as that.
Raiding was indeed taken out of context. You used raiding to back up your claims that previous seasons rewards should not be obtainable no more, yet failed to realise how trivial and meaningless everyone that raiders get is. Anima weapon aka "easy way" (as you'd name it) is currently the best weapon for each job. Somehow poeple still clear a12s weekly. I see not a single raider whining on forums that his precious a12s weapon is garbage now. Yet I see plenty of pvpers discarding any idea even if it's reasonable (like the one promoted in this thread). Yeah sure it's better to say git gud, in a game where you can't discuss any strategy during preparation time that was made most likely for the sake of discussing strategy (what an irony, isn't it ?).

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

- I never said hunts killed raids. They did however intially kill everything else as you could get everything but Atma (and raid gear) through it.
- I've been PvPing for quite some time, and even despite the long break I once took, I am well aware of what it was like. Queues were long due to the lack of popularity and the rigidity of the GC restrictions. Lifting that did exactly what we said it would; improve queues. Garo, as a conveniently timed special event simply piggybacked off that. No really. Give the core PvP community something they've wanted for 3 years, beside a special event centered around PvP and you have a winning formula. Dedicated PvPers are satisfied, newcomers are perhaps blissfully unaware of the way things were. . . There's also the larger controversies beneath the surface but it's all here in this forum.
- I did say if it's a matter of fufilling the requirements for a previous season's reward, then fine. It's proportional, as opposed to say, the Season 3 top 10 minion being an achievement reward now. There were players that grinded out the achievement and got it before winners did. I'd hardly call that proportional. Call me cruel, but if past rewards in the Feast are THAT important, implement the vouchers. But! No double dipping. You can either take the current season reward, or get a previous one. Otherwise you're winning one season for two. Nope. Sorry. No.
- Give the world/server firsts a special title or reward. I've never once said anything against that. I even like the idea despite knowing I'd likely never get it myself. This does in fact support my statements as far as challenge and rewards being proportional because the world/server first race IS a competition.
- Any raider knows that the relic is, and has always been the long trail up the mountain they prefer to climb. Easy road/Hard road. Time vs skill, both requiring effort. I too accepted this, however much I personally hate, yet have a relic.
- Please don't even bring up the lack of chat as a critical point. I've been at the forefront of that one since it was announced. I am all too aware of the huge detriment it is.

[Titor]

I actually kind of support this. I have all three season rewards, but people find different appeals in different things. It doesn't really matter what 'season' it represented, but overall it implies that you made it in the top 100/30. Some people might prefer mounts, some might prefer glamour. As long as the requirement is you -must- be in the top 100/top 30 (And none of the 'if you get plat you get some vouchers you collect over time without being in the top 100/30 stuff'), I don't really care. The time gated stuff doesn't mean much to me. My s1 outfit isn't more important than my s2 outfit, etc. It'd be nice for new players to have a selection if they want to get into PvP now but prefer glamour or mounts and have the option. AS LONG as we get new items each season as well and vouchers ONLY go to people in the top 100 or top 30.

[Aviars]

Didn't knew people raid just for temporary, fast replaceable gear. Thought they like hanging with friends. Or want to push themselves to new heights. Having fun wiping and progressing. Gear is only a bonus but not a reason for raiding.

Likewise, if you are doing PvP only for rewards, you are doing it wrong.

Funny, because people like you are complaining about rewards. Aren't you playing this just for fun?