Should healers now be allowed to play how they choose to play?

[Feyona]

You're a healer who is using their DPS abilities. Healer jobs are hybrid jobs in this game: they heal, DPS and buff. You're not changing from one job or a role to another, you're playing one job which has all three types of abilities.

I dont agree that healer is the same role as dps and even if it was intended to be, which I believe from numerous sources that it wasnt then I would be asking for a choice of roles to play

[Lambdafish]

As stated before cleric exists to remind you that you are going into a different role or all classes are hybrids and intended to be. This is not the case you are a healer in one stance and a dps in the other . Bard doesnt have to become a different role it is intended as part of the DPS role. You can support with different classes it doesnt mean your changing role 'support' is not changing role. Or ast woul be termed just a support

AST is defined as a Heal/Support, just as BRD is defined as DPS/Support. That doesn't change Taikas argument that when playing songs you are performing a function secondary to your job. The bit about songs that reminds you that you are going into a different role is the fact that it lowers your DPS while in the stance. The reason for this is because this toolkit makes BRD more versatile and able to perform multiple "roles", the drawbacks on cleric stance exist for the exact same reason.

[Neela]

AST is defined as a Heal/Support, just as BRD is defined as DPS/Support. That doesn't change Taikas argument that when playing songs you are performing a function secondary to your job. The bit about songs that reminds you that you are going into a different role is the fact that it lowers your DPS while in the stance. The reason for this is because this toolkit makes BRD more versatile and able to perform multiple "roles", the drawbacks on cleric stance exist for the exact same reason.

+1

this is way more neutral than those false-statements ^^

[Kitfox]

It's like the previous couple of pages never existed.

[Neela]

It's like the previous couple of pages never existed.

yeah thats what I thought as well ^^'

[Feyona]

+1

this is way more neutral than those false-statements ^^

Yes I get the extra support is required, and that all classes have them but not one of the other classes have to play a completely different role with different skill set, mindset, and playstyle to support, I play ast, when Im using cards I dont need to change role, I am still healing with the same skills I use as a healer. The argunent that support is a different role is debatable and sorry that was meant towards lambdafishes comment not yours

[bounddreamer]

Then you are a dps and not a healer, which actually proves my point rather than makes it 'wrong' Just because low content exists that dont need much healing doesnt make the fact that you go into cleric to become a dps a fact, cleric makes you a dps role.

Just because you're saying words doesn't make them correct.

"You're a dps and not a healer..." No, that's not correct. I am a healer using my entire toolkit. Stone heavies the mob and makes them move more slowly. Aero applies a dot. Meanwhile the tank takes a trivial amount of damage. Cure tops them off.

This is BASIC.

I don't have to do any of that with cleric stance switched on. In fact, I've seen plenty of healers apply stone without using cleric stance.

"Cleric makes you a dps role..." Nnnnnnno, it doesn't. It swaps your INT and MND and gives you a damage bonus. That is literally all it does. It doesn't SWITCH OFF your healing spells. It makes them less effective. But if you're in content where healing requirements are trivial, even that "less effective" cure can be enough.

[Feyona]

Just because you're saying words doesn't make them correct.

"You're a dps and not a healer..." No, that's not correct.

This is BASIC.

I don't have to do any of that with cleric stance switched on. In fact, I've seen plenty of healers apply stone without using cleric stance.

"Cleric makes you a dps role..." Nnnnnnno, it doesn't. It swaps your INT and MND and gives you a damage bonus. That is literally all it does. It doesn't SWITCH OFF your healing spells. It makes them less effective. But if you're in content where healing requirements are trivial, even that "less effective" cure can be enough.

You cannot hardly heal when in cleric same as a summoner cant heal effectively. Slightly less effectively is an understement. That is because you are NOT meant to heal as a summoner. Same as healer is not meant to dps in that healer role, and visa versa. And I do mean heal in the sense of the word like summoner being able to through 18k crit heals like my wmg does and yes its fine if u want o throw a dot in your chosen role To add to that cleric disabled in pvp, think broil is 100 and something I can dps yes but its not effective. Does give you something to do though and if cleric were disabled you can still contribute

[Connor]

While I understand everyone's comparisons between Bards using songs and healers using Cleric Stance, I don't think it's an accurate comparison.

A Bard is - first and foremost - a dps. This is why Bards are actively enouraged to not use Ballad or Paeon unless absolutely necessary.
The damage penalties from songs has been lowered in the past, so this isn't as large a bottleneck to their dps as it was, and for all we know the damage penalties could be removed in 4.0.
A Bard that sings is not performing a function secondary to their job because singing doesn't stop or alter their dps in any way other than lowering it. And it's this fact that means you don't want to be using these songs unless in a life-or-death situation. In fact, I wouldn't be suprised if future songs continue the trend of being oGCD so they infringe even less upon Bard's dps. All DPS have their own forms of party support, and whilst Bard has a bit more than others, it isn't enough for them to be considered any less of a dps than any other job. Nobody is going to want to take a Bard that is good at support but bad at dps, and they wouldn't be expected to, because a Bard is a dps. If songs were more involved then it would be a good comparison, but you don't need to manage them at the level you should be managing Cleric Stance and it's related aspects (awareness of party HP, incoming damage, boss difficulty, incoming mechanics, etc).

A Bard sings Foe Requiem solely because it gives a dps boost. It wouldn't matter whether it was a song, an oGCD or a normal attack, it would continue being used because it increases dps. It's nothing to do with their 'role' as a support-oriented dps, it's simply to do with the fact that it increases party dps. Likewise, other support abilities like Ballad, Paeon, and the old version of The Warden's Paean, will always be avoided whenever possible because the Bard's ultimate goal is always to maximize their dps, and they can't do that while singing anything other than Requiem. A Bard won't choose songs that infringe upon their role unless a situation arises where their dps is put in jeopardy without songs that lower dps, such as the potential of a tank going down and the Bard getting hate.
The point is that a Bard's songs are almost always used for party dps, not because they're under any obligation to 'support' the party. Just like a Machinist will always use Hypercharge; not because they're under any obligation to 'support' the party, but because it increases their and the party's dps.

Not to mention that those who dislike having to support the party as a Bard can change to a less support oriented dps like Monk; for dps, there's variety in their playstyles. Obviously, there are a lot of aspects of homogenization that exist for dps as well, but this is a different point for a different thread


Singing as a Bard requires pressing a single button. It's another 'set-and-forget' mechanic that you have very little tools to manipulate or modify or interact with outside of a single 180-second cooldown. Once it's done you can go back to your main priority of dealing as much damage as possible.


For a Healer, however, it's very easy to heal too much. Healing too much obviously isn't ever desirable; you end up using time and resources that don't need to be used.
Unlike a Bard, who can't complete their main focus until the enemy is dead, a Healer's main focus is easily fulfilled during most fights.
Because healers have no tools to reinforce the party's dps like a Bard does, they have no choice but to utilize the only tools they have that won't result in overhealing, their dps abilities.
A Healer isn't magically changing to dps when they use Cleric Stance, obviously. Their main goal to keep the party alive is always their priority. But they have no abilities that are supplementary to this role; their GCD abilities are always either healing, or damage.

Unlike a Bard, who spends just 1.5 seconds every few minutes to sing, a healer must make a conscious effort upon using Cleric Stance to both maximize their dps and their healing output, whilst buffing the party, ensuring they heal only what they need to, etc, etc.

Now, like I said in my previous post, there isn't anything inherently wrong with Cleric Stance or having to dps as a healer. Having to move your awareness from a single enemy to the raid as a whole whilst still keeping the party healed is fun and feels rewarding.
I know I'm repeating myself, but as I said, the problem is that there is no variation on this playstyle between any of the three healers.

Giving certain healers the ability to contribute to party dps through different means than dps keeps everyone happy. Those who enjoy the current dual-nature of healing can still enjoy moving between offensive and healing stances, whilst those who'd prefer an alternative playstyle can also actually do so now. This would also mean that people who'd like to have an alternative, less offensive playstyle, can still do so without having to ignore large parts of their toolkit or face contributing less than others of the same role.

With all the talk of the 'revamped battle system' for 4.0, I think this is the perfect opportunity for them to look into adding more varied playstyles between healers.

[Lambdafish]

Yes I get the extra support is required, and that all classes have them but not one of the other classes have to play a completely different role with different skill set, mindset, and playstyle to support, I play ast, when Im using cards I dont need to change role, I am still healing with the same skills I use as a healer. The argunent that support is a different role is debatable and sorry that was meant towards lambdafishes comment not yours

Its all semantics really whether or not support is a role or not. I've said this so many time in so many threads that roles are fluid in this game. BRDs lower their DPS to aid in TP and MP regen, PLDs have access to healing skills and party mitigation skills, NINs have enmity reducing abilities, WARs are identified as DPS tanks, and healers have access to cleric stance and DPS skills. It doesn't matter what your definition of a role is, because the definition of every role is to do your best within the confines of your skillset. The way you play SCH is to mitigate, heal, and use skills like rouse to open up windows in which you can go into cleric stance and throw up DoTs and shadowflare, that is using SCHs skillset the way it is designed regardless of the fact that it is a healer (unsure on the other two, but you can do the same thing with regen and aspected benefic).

Healers are designed in a way that allows for gaps in healing, this is so that they can do mechanics, or if they don't need to do mechanics then they can do something else (whether it be mitigating, using cards or DPSing), there is no "playstyle choice" there, it is how healing in this game is designed, just as DPS jobs are designed to be played a certain way but people can choose to spam impulse strike.

I won't kick you for not DPSing, but that doesn't make it the correct way to play