What changes will push sch out of meta

[IttyBitty]

Sometimes a class is just overperforming. Bringing other classes up to that same point doesn't always make things any healthier. Balance changes should never just go towards "buff". That's how power creep happens.

[Vrmillion]

cant agree more
Scan though I love the spell in the turn based series i could imagine it saying the same thing on every boss "weak to trick attack/foe's requiem)

Well, it doesn't necessarily have to do the same thing.

The second boss in City of Amdapor HM has a Libra (aka Scan) spell which makes the party weak to certain elements.

[technole]

I mean this is my opinion of what happened as raider. I play all 3 healers and the whole time I've been saying after the first set of changes diurnal vs whm was not actually that bad of a gap (despite what many people were still saying ) and it was really noct va sch that has a huge gap. And every patch I was like ok yes they are finally going to work on noct vs sch and it just never really happened. I realize that noct is good. I know it's solo healed a12s and like noct AB is as strong as cute 2. But it still was not favored for prog and I still feel that is bc of all the free support and healing Eos provides. JMO pls tell me what you guys think

I can't imagine how rough it was for WHM/AST in A8S with those J-Kicks before the first Noct buff, it just wasn't even a thought to progress with that combo. I figured from that point on they were just going to buff the shields more because anything else is just a re-haul.

Now this Creator tier we've seen a good amount of WHM/AST for progression. However you have to think a little differently. Noct AST should actually be the "main healer" since with same ilvl Benefic>Cure because of the stance buff, and the WHM supporting with regens, AoE healing and also DPS.

Aside from this combo having to spend GCDs to actually heal where as Eos can carry a lot of weight on her shoulders while healers in cleric stance, the problems I have seen with some groups that are slow on progression is the WHM and sometimes both healers aren't ACC-melded. Both healers sometimes collide on healing instead of working together. So the combo doesn't put up much damage either. Good groups figure out how both healers can keep their DoTs running regardless of the combo. It's really down to efficiency, and there isn't any doubt that AST/SCH provides the most.

You have to ask and answer more questions with WHM/AST to be efficient, and even more so with AST/AST.

[Ceasaria]

For me, what is necessary :
Remove Balance (and Arrow) from Astro.
Add Stoneskin II available in battle for Whm.
With that, you have already a better balance.

Furthermore, I would like to change many things for the Astro like its stances.

[Reivya]

I think removing Balance and/or Arrow would be a little heavy-handed for an Astro nerf - they might reduce Balance's numbers again though. I like the idea about stances for WHM because of Assize, and we are the base class for Clerics so maybe getting a trait for it is something SE could do. Anything like from Lost City of Amdapor (Hard) would be amazing. It was hard running that dungeon and seeing all of the white magic we just don't have (Water III, Flood, Libra, Reverse, Reraise). I know it was an ancient city from the height of white magic, but maybe would 60 => 70 class quests could be about decoding some Amdapori knowledge.

I like the idea of Stoneskin II in combat, but am a little hesitant because of its pretty hefty MP cost and cast time. You'd probably be using it with Swiftcast, and it's only 10% of a party member's HP that is protected than a blanket 10% damage reduction. However, with HP increasing as we get to level 70 and more gear this could outweigh the other drawbacks.

[IttyBitty]

Stoneskin 2 takes too long to cast, costs far too much, and protects far too little. Not worth in combat. Heck, even Stoneskin isn't really worth it unless someone is absolutely going to die without it. Succor has half the cast time, 75% of the mana cost (SCH also doesn't have WHM's mana issues) and provides around the same level of protection on DPS classes as Stoneskin 2 would. Only tanks get much of a benefit out of SS. Adlo and N. Benefic still generally blow it out of the water. If the target needed healing as well? No contest whatsoever.

60-70 will also increase enemy damage and the shielding output of SCH/N.AST, so I don't really expect the HP increase to change much in how effective they are/feel in comparison to the others.

Like a lot of WHM's kit, Stoneskin is in need of quite a bit of love. Since it's the only native mitigation WHM has right now*, surely it should be made to feel like a good tool in our kit?

*Yes you could potentially argue that Protect is one of WHM's mitigation tools, but since it's very likely to be taken away and put into the new class skill system, it's not really fair to call it such. All healers have it, all healers use it, and it's just as effective when cast by an AST, SCH or PLD as it is on WHM. You are going to have it 99.9% of the time on an entire party.


I'd also prefer they not remove Arrow or Balance. They are good utility. They're just far too strong right now.

[Risvertasashi]

*Yes you could potentially argue that Protect is one of WHM's mitigation tools, but since it's very likely to be taken away and put into the new class skill system, it's not really fair to call it such.

It will actually be really interesting to see exactly what abilities on the healer end get put into the new cross role system. Protect, Virus, Swiftcast, etc seem like the obvious strong candidates...

But I wonder if we'll also get things along the lines of Balance/Arrow/Fey Wind?

It would be very interesting if SE pushed each healer back to its core, healing roots and then you choose your utility via the new system. And then, of course, WHM (or any future healer) won't get left out.

[IttyBitty]

That would definitely shake things up a great deal! I don't expect them to go -that- far with cross skills, but the possibilities that could open up...oh my.

[technole]

I feel they have to help Stoneskin a bit, but if it's going into the general healer skill system they can't amp it up that much. I feel they can probably go up 1-2% though because of it's current MP cost, since HP pools will go up even more, and to make it a little more useful because currently you are just using it for pulls and weaknesses. You want your Noct Astro or Scholar doing the fine mitigation for busters and hopefully the other healer just healing the damage. So they have to keep things role-centric too.

Stoneskin 2 cross healer skill makes sense. It was added by-request from the first fanfest feedback, and when we only had WHM/SCH. Now is just a good time to put in in the skill system. It's about the only annoying situation on AST pre-pull, we already have to prepare draws and royal roads for pulls. Basically a lot of button pressing that is unnecessary. So this is more QoL than anything.

[Risvertasashi]

That would definitely shake things up a great deal! I don't expect them to go -that- far with cross skills, but the possibilities that could open up...oh my.

On the one hand... Yeah, I kind of worry that the only things that would go in are basically the current cross class skills (but hopefully traited), which wouldn't actually change anything. But if SE is more aggressive with it... there could be some very interesting possibilities indeed.

Since DPS getting currently-job-actions pushed into the new system is all but confirmed, however... it just might happen for healers too.