What changes will push sch out of meta

[technole]

I do love how people are complaining about SCH still when it's rather obvious that AST is by far the strongest healer right now.

..

If they're not adding a new tank or healer, then the least we can expect is some actual balancing that will make all three equally viable.

All healers are viable, there is a difference with being the meta and viable. I'm not sure why this is getting lost in the thread.

You can't doubt SCH is strongest, it always has a place in any competitive raid. However AST is a not-far behind as 2nd best healer. That's a far cry from when it was a distant 3rd back at 3.0. AST/SCH is the strongest combo, then WHM/SCH, and last-place AST/WHM (which didn't used to be viable at-all for progression, until the last Midas Noct buff).

This tier is the closest to healer parity as we ever been through out Heavenward, all three healers have similar clear rates for Creator Savage. It doesn't get any better than that, just because one healer isn't in the meta doesn't mean it's not viable nor is it a problem. White Mage is a way better place currently in this game compared to Paladin. There isn't a lot they need to do for WHM today, aside from buffing it's MP economy which is the worst of the three healers. However it isn't going to change the fact that AST has cards that buff.

The reality of the OP just wants AST/WHM to be so good over a taking a SCH, and that just isn't going to happen. So to make it viable, we'll make the Noct shields stronger than SCH, that's fine. We obviously have to make up for not having a fairy so lets just make the combo try to take less damage. Great. We can do this combo this tier without anyone complaining, compared to back in Midas.

Similarly on the tank combo, no sane group does PLD/DRK today. You lose out on so much. The healers are in a very good place right now.

[Feyona]

SCh strenght is the powerful damage mitigation, since you can heal pre-emptively and most of the healing potency will always be used while WHM and AST in Diurnal Sect must wait until HP is low enough to avoid overhealing. Shielding healers tend to be the most effective type of healer in MMO
At last, the mindset should be about making the useless jobs not useless, not having the other classes become also useless.



Problem is that a DoT and an Attack Spell can't make up for the damage boost Cleric Stance provide since damage still scales out of INT, not MND.

well was thinking more of balance really and sch has far too many spells But on the whole I agree my stance was simplification for optimal play

[Reiryuu]

For WHM maybe they should do something like instead of Overheal (the trait) being a proc off cure 2 to help cure 3, it stores all overhealed HP as a mitigation shield but it only does so for the last heal used so things like regen and spamming cures wouldn't buff the shield to ridiculous amounts and perhaps it wouldn't trigger if the target is already at full HP.

[Fernosaur]

The only healer that has utility outside of direct healing and mitigation is AST. So both WHM and SCH are 'selfish' (as you use the word) already.

Except Scholar doesn't only bring their own DPS to the table. The fairy's constant healing, the AoE regen along with the MDEF and healing potency buff actually help the other healer DPS a lot more. The entire first 30-40 seconds of A10S can be handled by Eos alone with a pre-deployed Adlo buffer, for example. That's almost a minute in which neither of the healers have to heal at all, and this applies to a lot of different duties that have high raid damage at the start of the fight. Other examples are A9S, Nidhogg, Sephirot and Thordan back in the day. Hell, Sophia's entire first and second phases can be solo healed by either of the fairies too, I'd dare say the fairy can solo heal around 60% of the entire fight lmao.

Even if WHM's personal DPS was super high, it still wouldn't really compare to that, but BIG buffs to its MP regeneration and shortening some instant healing CDs could make it at least not undesireable.

[Vrmillion]

For WHM maybe they should do something like instead of Overheal (the trait) being a proc off cure 2 to help cure 3, it stores all overhealed HP as a mitigation shield...

As much as I appreciate the brainstorming, this would encroach a lot on SCH's identity of pre-mitigating and shielding.

Personally, I want to see some WHM-specific utility. SCH has loads of mitigation and fairy buffs, AST has cards, WHM has nothing unique. Either SE plays to WHM's strengths and give it big potency buffs / cooldown buffs so it can heal more efficiently than other healers which gives both healers more time to dps, or they add in its own utility. Reraise, Scan, Blink, Shell, Reflect are all mostly unrepresented white spells in the game atm, or they can make up their own thing with the currently underutilized water magic.

[Reiryuu]

As much as I appreciate the brainstorming, this would encroach a lot on SCH's identity of pre-mitigating and shielding.

Personally, I want to see some WHM-specific utility. SCH has loads of mitigation and fairy buffs, AST has cards, WHM has nothing unique. Either SE plays to WHM's strengths and give it big potency buffs / cooldown buffs so it can heal more efficiently than other healers which gives both healers more time to dps, or they add in its own utility. Reraise, Scan, Blink, Shell, Reflect are all mostly unrepresented white spells in the game atm, or they can make up their own thing with the currently underutilized water magic.

But see, therein lies the problem. "WHM NEEDS MOAR MITIGATION" Ok, let's give it more mitigation. "WAAAAAAAH I'M NOT A SPECIAL SNOWFLAKE ANYMOREZ!"

Now, that's me being sarcastic, but still... whm's one unique mitigation (ProShell- the magic resistance was integrated into basic protect because SCH complained it was too necessariy in raids) was taken away from it giving it to both SCH and AST and then to add insult to injury Graniteskin (which used to increase stoneskin to 18% HP) was taken too. Give whm something unique and SCH and AST will complain that they need that too. I mean there is literally nothing that WHM has that scholar doesn't have and there are plenty of things that both AST and SCH have that WHM doesn't. WHM shared some abilities with those classes, so really WHM should at least get *something* from those classes back. I mean I would love to see something unique for WHMs too, but at this point in time I'd rather just have *something* than nothing to replace what we lost.

[Vrmillion]

snip

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. WHM's only unique effect right now is Cure 3. We need some comparable identity of our own that the other healers don't have.

[Silver-Strider]

As much as I appreciate the brainstorming, this would encroach a lot on SCH's identity of pre-mitigating and shielding.

Personally, I want to see some WHM-specific utility. SCH has loads of mitigation and fairy buffs, AST has cards, WHM has nothing unique. Either SE plays to WHM's strengths and give it big potency buffs / cooldown buffs so it can heal more efficiently than other healers which gives both healers more time to dps, or they add in its own utility. Reraise, Scan, Blink, Shell, Reflect are all mostly unrepresented white spells in the game atm, or they can make up their own thing with the currently underutilized water magic.

If there was ever a time to utilize Water Magic, it would be in Stormblood, considering the whole Underwater aspects they're adding, although I would be all over adding in Shell, Reflect and Reraise to a WHM's toolkit.

[ADVSS]

If there was ever a time to utilize Water Magic, it would be in Stormblood, considering the whole Underwater aspects they're adding, although I would be all over adding in Shell, Reflect and Reraise to a WHM's toolkit.

cant agree more
Scan though I love the spell in the turn based series i could imagine it saying the same thing on every boss "weak to trick attack/foe's requiem)

[Tiva]

I love all the ideas bouncing around in here. I want to address one thing I feel comes up all the time and I hate it...
This is he idea that we should not nerf classes. I don't think there's anything wrong with nerfing. I realize people don't like it ... mainly because it makes them feel bad that their class got nerfed. But the alternative is to just keep buffing the other classes until something sticks. And I feel like that is harder. Imo when they adjust classes they would do better to just slightly increase an aspect of one class while slightly decreasing an aspect of another. This is more likely to bring them close imo. I felt like this happens with Astro. They buffed them and left the other healers the same ... nothing changed in meta. They buffed them again. Still not enough. Devs are going .... what can we do to make ast competitive???? Let's just buff the shit out of their dps support! Ugh. Ok now they get to be meta. But the issue is that diurnal was already close to being on par with whm. It was noct that really needed the help. It would have been easier to bring noct to sch level by making healing potency or resource changes on the fairy (as many have suggested). But I feel they are so scared to nerf a class and only want to buff that they missed a big chance to affect balance. So now... even though noct shielding is super strong it's still not as good as sch bc of the fairy support. But now diurnal (which imo was already balanced with whm or damn close) has completely overtaken it bc of the cards. Can't win.

I mean this is my opinion of what happened as raider. I play all 3 healers and the whole time I've been saying after the first set of changes diurnal vs whm was not actually that bad of a gap (despite what many people were still saying ) and it was really noct va sch that has a huge gap. And every patch I was like ok yes they are finally going to work on noct vs sch and it just never really happened. I realize that noct is good. I know it's solo healed a12s and like noct AB is as strong as cute 2. But it still was not favored for prog and I still feel that is bc of all the free support and healing Eos provides. JMO pls tell me what you guys think