[Tanks/Healers]: Are you disappointed there is no new job in 4.0?

[Llus]

Dividing DPS up into Ranged and Melee is understandable but your getting a bit carried away.

When was the last time you asked your BLM, SMN, DRG, NIN, or MNK for MP? Heavenward got a ranged support DPS role while leaving mele and ranged casters out in the cold. Further, you can break this down by primary stat:

VIT+STR: WAR DRK PLD
STR: MNK DRG
DEX: NIN BRD MCH
INT: BLM SMN
MND: WHM SCH AST

See where there's 3 classes and where there are 2? They're adding 2 new classes to fill the missing 3rd on STR and INT. By the way, that should give you an indication of what your primary and secondary roles are within a party.

[Altena]

Grouping all tanks into an umbrella group and all healers into an umbrella group while trying to argue that the differences between DPS jobs make them each unique roles that need attention is closed minded.

In all honesty, your statement earlier about PLD being "different" to WAR and DRK..

They really just aren't..

They are literally the same base class with some sort of mechanic overlayed over the top of it.
They have a handful of mitigation skills, many which are close enough to a copy + paste, with a couple of skills that does one the other doesn't in terms of % mitigated and type of mitigation it is.
They have a damage combo, an enmity combo, and some form of damage reduction debuff (RoH / Delerium / Path / Repraisal).
Pair that with a couple of AoE hate tools.. There, I just described basically all 3 tanks.

The only "unique" one is arguably WAR due to its managment of stacks, however the base class of all 3 are relatively the same.

Now try and make that same comparison to a MCH and a DRG. They don't even queue the same - the DF algorithm prioritizes 1 melee and 1 ranged in every dungeon you queue into.

Again, the only argument you can honestly make here is that melee got NIN, and that ranged supports now have cast bars.

snip

Honestly I can't say a whole lot about this because I don't necesarilly disagree with much of it.

They ruined role differentiation between Caster and Ranged with the introduction to cast bars for Ranged. Which I don't agree with, however is a completely different argument to the one in this thread.

As for NIN, while it is a melee, it is primarily focused on support. It bridges the gap between support and heavy melee classes to some degree, however for those that actually want a heavy melee, we have still been sitting on our hands and waiting.

However all of this is the kind of thing that Tank and Healer only players just don't understand... Just because there are more DPS classes in the game, it does not mean that there are more options for DPS roles in the party.

The preferred setup for any 8-man group is MNK/DRG - NIN - MCH/BRD - Caster

Currently we have these options:
Tank x2 - PLD/DRK/WAR
Healer x2 - AST/WHM/SCH
DPS Slot 1 - MNK / DRG (SAM)
DPS Slot 2 - NIN
DPS Slot 3 - MCH / BRD
DPS Slot 4 - BLM / SMN

I mean.. That alone should show you where we are missing our roles..

[Llus]

It is obvious. Yes.

On the other hand. We will rule Duty Finder (again).

I expect something to compensate in the future. But NOT, please, no a hammer welding tank or a BLue Mage tank or beast master tank. Pleae not. Those NOT. That are no tanks. If you don't want give us Samurai, then a Gunblade tank.

I actually think a hammer wielding tank would be a great idea. Synergy with MNK would improve since hammer = blunt damage

[Kyne_Lyons]

This flat out isn't true. With two new DPS it'll definitely mix things up.

You literally ignored the rest of my post where I specified that it was in regards to tanks and healers, thanks for reading it.

[Xlantaa]

I actually think a hammer wielding tank would be a great idea. Synergy with MNK would improve since hammer = blunt damage

I prefer a DPS with a Racket, like Crystal Chronicles. Hammers are ugly. And warrior is too similar in battlestyle to a hammer welding class.

[Oscura]

boop

Let's also not forget that Dark Knight flat out copy pasted the riot blade combo, some of Paladin's defensive cooldowns, and shield oath. The tanks really are not that different, but people will pretend they are.

You literally ignored the rest of my post where I specified that it was in regards to tanks and healers, thanks for reading it.

I didn't ignore the rest of your post. I'm just saying we have no idea what utility will be added for Tanks, Healers and DPS in 4.0. For all we know, there could be DPS utility that could ease up the pressure on tank and healer necessity. The problem is that we don't know anything. I just didn't reply to the rest of your post because the context was still the same, "same meta, they won't change PLD/DRK, talking about how (you) know how class balance works blah blah," I'm not going to waste my time replying to assumptions and uneducated guesses.

[Belhi]

When was the last time you asked your BLM, SMN, DRG, NIN, or MNK for MP? Heavenward got a ranged support DPS role while leaving mele and ranged casters out in the cold. Further, you can break this down by primary stat:

VIT+STR: WAR DRK PLD
STR: MNK DRG
DEX: NIN BRD MCH
INT: BLM SMN
MND: WHM SCH AST

See where there's 3 classes and where there are 2? They're adding 2 new classes to fill the missing 3rd on STR and INT. By the way, that should give you an indication of what your primary and secondary roles are within a party.

So by that logic NIN is similar to BRD? O.o

This is my point. People seem to be trying to divide DPS into a dozen different sub roles to justify there being two dps. There is one logical reason and one alone why we aren't having a tank and healer. They could only make two jobs and tanks and healers missed out this time. Beyond that it starts to get ridiculous. Next you will be dividing them up by the type of damage they do to justify it. Hell with the stats NIN and BRD/MCH and MNK and DRG don't share gear beyond accessories so why the hell does primary stats matter?

[Altena]

I actually think a hammer wielding tank would be a great idea. Synergy with MNK would improve since hammer = blunt damage

I am actually in two minds about weapon damage types... On one hand I like how classes support each other to some degree however it leaves the few that don't out in the cold a little.. Sometimes I wonder if they should just do away with them.. While it adds a little bit of complexity to compositions, it also forces them.

MCH is too valuable for hypercharge, and BRD is too valuable for casters (Foe), so you should pretty much always have one of these..
If you have a MCH / BRD you pretty much always want a DRG (Disembowel)..
If you have a DRG then the only other slot for melee should be a NIN (Trick attack is too valuable)..

Where is MNK in this?

I don't even particularly like MNK, and I much prefer playing DRG.. However there is a reason MNK is rather undesirable for a lot of raid comps in the current meta.

So by that logic NIN is similar to BRD? O.o

This is my point. People seem to be trying to divide DPS into a dozen different sub roles to justify there being two dps. There is one logical reason and one alone why we aren't having a tank and healer. They could only make two jobs and tanks and healers missed out this time. Beyond that it starts to get ridiculous. Next you will be dividing them up by the type of damage they do to justify it. Hell with the stats NIN and BRD/MCH and MNK and DRG don't share gear beyond accessories so why the hell does primary stats matter?

Playstyle? No.
Role? It actually is.. Hence why it's more of a support based DPS than a personal damage based DPS.
Their main role in a party is actually to support Tanks and melee.

Goad and enmity control is a thing. Not to mention enhancing the party's burst damage with Trick.
Goad is TP regen for everyone else ASIDE from the ninja.. That alone should show you how selfless of a class they are meant to be.
As for Enmity control - they allow the tanks to push out more damage by dropping enmity stances and combos in favour of damage, with both Shadewalker and Smokescreen.

They also tried to design Ninjutsu around tossing a bunch of utility onto the role. While it doesn't work for the most part because of reasons, they have them there.. Looking at the class as a whole it is definitely more of a support role than a heavy DPS. Compare all of this to DRG and MNK..

As for the ninjutsu comment, Doton and Hyoton aren't really used for their utility - however they are there for that reason. That is more of a community thing than anything else I realise so I won't press this argument.

[Kyne_Lyons]

I didn't ignore the rest of your post. I'm just saying we have no idea what utility will be added for Tanks, Healers and DPS in 4.0. For all we know, there could be DPS utility that could ease up the pressure on tank and healer necessity.

Warrior/Dark Knight
Warrior/Paladin
Paladin/Dark Knight

These are all the possible configurations of Tanks and the bottom one is bad. Unless they do something to fix this then we're left with the other two, which is what is viable right now, meaning nothing changes, which is what I posted. Keep up. This is pretty simple logic, thanks for calling me uneducated.

[Ilenya]

This flat out isn't true. With two new DPS it'll definitely mix things up. Let's also not forget that the whole point is to optimize tanks and healers so you can take a combination of any that you please rather than the "two best ones." Even before MCH became a "necessary" class for comps due to buffs, people were constantly shifting compositions because of the changes to Bard, Dragoon, Monk, BLM and SMN. It took almost a year for this patch to find its identity, and then AST came after that.

Also, am I disappointed in no new healer or tank? Actually, yes. Despite my arguments against people wanting them, I think it would've been cool to see either one.
This however, does not mean we needed either to get a new job.

I am guessing the "Same old Meta" was in regards to tanks/healers specifically.