Charging for runs.

[SDaemon]

This is against the ToS and is reportable/ban-able. You are not allowed to sell any kind of that content; ie. dungeons, mounts, raids. for gil.

There is nothing in the ToS against this...

[Risvertasashi]

I'm not seeing anything of the sort looking through it. Could you be specific on where it is in there?

He's flat out wrong. High end raid guilds have been doing mercenary runs since the beginning of the game. To the point where they even joke about their clients waiting for their gil to be delivered, so not exactly far from actual RMT connections but they're still in business just fine.

Now, what he might be thinking of is trading for stuff of real world value. Some artists, for example, have gotten warnings for trying to sell art or commissions for gil. This is technically a form of RMT as the art has real world value.

[EusisLandale]

He's flat out wrong. High end raid guilds have been doing mercenary runs since the beginning of the game. To the point where they even joke about their clients waiting for their gil to be delivered, so not exactly far from actual RMT connections but they're still in business just fine.

Now, what he might be thinking of is trading for stuff of real world value. Some artists, for example, have gotten warnings for trying to sell art or commissions for gil. This is technically a form of RMT as the art has real world value.

To be fair, high end guilds doing it doesn't mean it's not technically against the rules if it's in there somewhere. It's not hard to find violations of the naming rules, for example. The wording within the rules is even that they may do things about it not that they will.

[Masekase_Hurricane]

The fact that players say "BONUS TOMES," when someone says they're new or how tanks now want to rush though the start of dungeon, before the healer could even cast protect says a lot.

Just cast protect when they stop, if you are really desperate swiftcast it. As for the bonus tomes I will react with BONUS, as soon as I see a new person doing the dungeon. I'm genuinely pleased as it has just made my lore farm that little bit easier. If you have helped your FC/friends and don't need dungeons etc. Due to being capped on tomes then why would you enter the DF?

Apart from helping out FC members/novices. I haven't really set foot in the DF at all, as I don't do my daily bonuses or had a need for them. So I can't see an issue with healers or tanks charging to go in X dungeon, if they didn't need to enter one.

Although I think it would be a d**kish move if players are doing it out of spite when they actually need something from the dungeon too.

Buying clears I have a mixed opinion on, I disagree if someone is buying a run because they lack the skill to do it. Although I see nothing wrong with a player that is capable of clearing, but having shite luck with other members and can't get into a farm party.

[Lufir]

It's more than fair. You are taking the time away from new content and we all know there are players out there who love to race to max level, which you could be spending time doing. So this type of service is normal.

[Reinha]

Yea but isn't playing a MMO a way of passing time? I understand that phrase in other parts of life but not in gaming.

For some people with limited time to play it is of paramount importance that they get to exchange goods and services to be able to draw enjoyment out of an MMO in the first place. Most people don't farm every crafting material and craft absolutely every item they need in the game, whether it's glamour crystals, dyes, food, potions, materia or furniture. Or even crafted gear to avoid farming them from pve content. They pay gil in exchange for other players to spend that time leveling, farming and producing that simple everyday product.

Paying someone to shorten a dungeon queue is the exact same principle as paying someone to go mine some red pigment, make a small stack of Dalamud Red Dye and list it on the MB so it can conveniently be bought in any major city. It costs the gatherer-crafter nothing but time to do that and they still charge gil from the potential buyer.

To anyone who thinks charging gil for an in-game service (that the buyer could very well do or make himself) is exploiting or selfish, I hope you are completely self sufficient and never go near a market board. To take part in trade and then criticize others for doing the same would be a bit hypocritical. Just to clarify I'm saying this as someone who has at this time never sold or bought a run of anything.

[Nominous]

Semi-off-topic, but the fact that this thread even exists should be a deeply troubling sign for SE. Yoshi-P's whole stance of 'we're not worried about it because most of the DRK / AST players in Heavensward were already playing tanks / healers' is incredibly naive. He might end up being correct, but his logic is flawed.

I think the statement was fine- It's all about how you internalize what he said. For a lot of people, they took it as him saying, "We didn't see enough new Tanks or Healers from DRK and AST to find it worthwhile implementing new ones." I challenge people to think about his statement differently, though.

It starts with accepting that the Tank and Healer roles are, in fact, in a bad place right now. DRK has been preferred (and has been better) than PLD since 3.0 launch. WAR is a no-brainer OT slot. Healers are in less trouble, however, AST is a trouble child that can never be balanced appropriately in it's current state. SCH is basically in a similar situation as WAR. WHM lacks anything to make it unique.

You then have to ask yourself if you believe that adding another Tank or Healer for queue times, for the feeling of inclusion, or for flavor, is worth the potential consequences. I think that's where Yoshi-P was coming from. I took it as, "Since it's mostly Tanks and Healers that would be playing potential additions to their roles, I'd like to do them a service by balancing them first, before adding something for popularity sake."

I think the dev team deserves some respect alongside the criticism, and I don't think that's being fairly balanced right now. I'm sure they want to give people everything they want, but they don't always have the right idea for it at the time. Punishing DPS players? Sure, go ahead, but it doesn't make this situation any better.

[Belhi]

I think the dev team deserves some respect alongside the criticism, and I don't think that's being fairly balanced right now. I'm sure they want to give people everything they want, but they don't always have the right idea for it at the time. Punishing DPS players? Sure, go ahead, but it doesn't make this situation any better.

This isn't about punishing DPS players. The whole basis for this is the assumption that at launch dps queues will climb substantially. Yoshi P is right that EVENTUALLY it will balance out but at launch its likely to go nuts. Most healers and tanks have a dps offspec simply because a lot of solo content is easier to do as a dps. Questing as a healer is boring and slow. Its very likely that a fair number of them will try out the new jobs of the back, particularly those who find the roles appealing thematically. That will likely cause a spike in the number of dps levelling in ratio to healers and tanks right of the bat. Those healers and tanks that don't and level straight away will probably go back and start levelling their dps off spec once they hit 70.

In time things will settle down and people will return to tanking and healing, if for no other reason than to get shorter queues. However at launch there will likely be a spike in the shortage of tanks and healers for dungeons. This is what this is all about. Tanks and Healers considering offering their time to dps in queues to fast track their queues. Tanks and Healers will have no trouble doing the MSQ dungeons and such right off the bat. If you want them doing it more than once they will probably mostly need a reason to.

No Yoshi P might be completely right and there will be no problems at all in which case you wont see hiring a tank happening, at least for levelling, and all the discussion in this thread will not matter. But if queues jump like a lot of people suspect then tanks and healers hiring themselves out to help dps get through queue times will actually help the situation. The alternative is the tanks and healers just queue for the stuff they want to do, usually only a few times and everyone else has to wait.

As for balance.... I will believe it when I see it. I think there is fundamental issues with how they seem to be thinking about balance. In the current meta, the only way to make PLD or DRK competitive with a WAR as an off tank will end up leading to Job Homogenisation with none of the tanks having any particular strengths. Frankly it might be easier if they outright make WAR an inferior MT and DRK and PLD inferior OTs and give WAR another tank Job to compete with. The primary values you want in a MT vs OT are quite different just as is the case with Main healers and Off healers.

[Risvertasashi]

To be fair, high end guilds doing it doesn't mean it's not technically against the rules if it's in there somewhere. It's not hard to find violations of the naming rules, for example. The wording within the rules is even that they may do things about it not that they will.

Fair, but if you've read the terms (as you seem to have) then you should already know: There's nothing that says you can't trade gil for in game services.

Now if the service itself is a violation (say, paying someone to harass someone), then yeah you'll get in trouble. But that's because of what you're doing, not the transaction.

[loreleidiangelo]

You then have to ask yourself if you believe that adding another Tank or Healer for queue times, for the feeling of inclusion, or for flavor, is worth the potential consequences. I think that's where Yoshi-P was coming from. I took it as, "Since it's mostly Tanks and Healers that would be playing potential additions to their roles, I'd like to do them a service by balancing them first, before adding something for popularity sake."

I'll be frank, I think a lot of people don't care. For them, leveling is content, and they believe that the developers have purposefully robbed them of content this expansion, no matter what the reasoning behind it is. Without pointing fingers at anyone specific, it's not a long shot to say that a good portion of people unhappy with no new tank or healer jobs are people that don't raid, who don't have a vested interest in role balance at the upper tiers of play, and don't mind that PLDs aren't meta for raids or that AST is a bongofest of a balancing nightmare right now. They're not being kicked from Dun Scaith or expert roulette for their job choice, so the fact that the devs are essentially "taking the expansion off" to fix something that doesn't have any effect on the content that they play is hugely disheartening for them.

And who knows? Maybe jack-all will happen except that PLD and WHM will get super DPS potency buffs and AST cards will be gutted to near uselessness so that there's nothing separating them from WHM and SCH. Then that anger will be justified, I think. But for now, I think it's best for everyone involved to take a "wait and see" approach, if only to stem some of the endless flailing and histrionics that are dominating the OF right now.