Mentor minimum requirement is too low / needs adjustment

[Vhailor]

It's also unwanted when everyone but the tank ends up tanking (as what kept happening, hence why we even spoke up in the first place).

What, then, when you ask and they say "no" despite the issues? If you can't even perform your role at a baseline function, yet want no advice, then you're immediately back to square one. You're "forced" to suffer through a run with incompetent players, leave and suffer a penalty, kick them yourself, ask to be removed, or give that [unwanted] advice. Considering you're a mentor, especially if you're wearing the crown, most other players would probably expect you to say something (which I have also seen others ask players why mentors aren't mentoring).

It's a catch-22.

...but that IS the role of the mentor. If I see a player struggling, either with class or mechanics, I'm going to say something about it to let them know. There's no reason to let a someone struggle for the sake of pride. It is unfair to let hold the rest of the party back on that person's skill level either.

Anyways. Back on topic....I do agree that mentor requirements need to be changed to be more strict, but options to do so without facing the risk of abuse are very, very limited.

I think both of these points bring up the more salient topic - what is the role of a Mentor? Perhaps SE should step in at some point and clarify that.

To me, a Mentor is supposed to serve as a resource, much like an in-game, in-person link to the websites and experiences that provide knowledge about FFXIV. If someone's new to a dungeon, or forgot a boss' mechanics, we can provide the answers if requested. If a person is looking for advice as they start a new job, we can provide it. In rare cases, such as verbal abuse, I also see Mentors as being the lead person to step in and contact a GM, to protect people who are being harassed.

What a Mentor is NOT, in my mind, is an enforcer making sure everyone plays their job correctly. People need to be free to screw up, and as this is a game, they need to be free to do so without receiving unwanted advice (in my opinion). But again, maybe SE has a different idea in mind - either of you could have the right idea of it, or I could, or we all could, or none of us could. I do think it could use clarification, though. People need to know what Mentors are for, Mentors need to know what their role is, and when both of those pieces are in place, a report system of the kind I described would have far fewer negative side effects.

One final point, though - while everyone's experience is different, I've generally found that people who don't want to learn, won't. In situations where someone is failing, my approach would be to let them fail. Either kick them if it's bad enough, or muddle on through otherwise. One day, hopefully, they'll either figure it out on their own, or realize that they need help - and then a Mentor will be a valued resource. Until then, I think providing advice comes off more like a cop pulling someone over for speeding, and nobody wants that in a videogame.

Your negative experiences are obviously the only negative experiences anyone has ever experienced, because everyone is obviously just an extension of you and your mindset.

Anecdotal evidence is anecdotally experienced.

Seriously? Anecdotal evidence can't be used as 'proof' of something, and it's a poor idea to bring it up when discussing something that is particularly rare, or doesn't follow the flow of basic logic. In this case, however, I was discussing something that is (a) commonly seen, and (b) a logical outcome of a Mentor system that has virtually no hurdle besides experience. As such, anecdotal evidence is a useful tool to *reinforce* a concept that is already known. I'm betting you know this, of course, so why you chose to respond with some smarmy quip is beyond me.

[Miste]

Either kick them if it's bad enough, or muddle on through otherwise. One day, hopefully, they'll either figure it out on their own, or realize that they need help - and then a Mentor will be a valued resource. Until then, I think providing advice comes off more like a cop pulling someone over for speeding, and nobody wants that in a videogame.

Why would you kick someone without first attempting to quickly explain what they are failing to do to see if it helps them? They might actually welcome the advice and listen, but you kick without trying first...

I am not sure how offering advice in a cooperative style game is the same as a cop pulling someone over for breaking the law either...it's only advice it's not like the person giving advice is trying to arrest players and throw them in jail for failing to do something they just meant to offer them help. If these players don't want the help they can simply clarify that with a "thanks for trying to help me, but I wish to learn it on my own".

I mean that is much better than getting defensive right? So I still don't get why people have to be so uptight about advice. You can take it or ignore it; you don't need to get pissed off about it which I've seen far too many people do.

[Shikiseki]

I admit I haven't read the whole discussion but this topic has been brought up so many times now with the same outcome.
Everyone seems to have different standards and expectations for mentors who literally have not a single chance to be a good one - ever.

But the minimum requirements as they are, for me, seem to be more than enough. What do you want them to do? Run Sastasha bazillion of times to meet the (no)lifer XII achievement? (oh please, if you think this will make a good mentor...) or have everything at 60? (cause ain't nobody got time for anything else literally)

I'd say something like a regular mentor check would be interesting where you have to get checked by how many commendations you've gotten throughout a set period of time maybe, or have 15 quiz type questions to test your knowledge on a timer (but nothing too troublesome, this isn't a job, it's a voluntary act!). If you happen to be on a break, you do lose your mentorship temporarily and once you're back you can re-qualify that makes space for active mentors to join the mentor chat channel.

But I think the core issue itself currently is a bad party finder mentality - this "git gud" and "skip soar" mentality, absolutely has to go in order to grow. Unless that fear of screwing up is gone, you can qq all day, nothing is going to change. Everyone makes mistakes and people should be ok with it in this game, which, quite frankly, at the current state is not the case.

[JunseiKei]

I'd say something like a regular mentor check would be interesting where you have to get checked by how many commendations you've gotten throughout a set period of time maybe, or have 15 quiz type questions to test your knowledge on a timer (but nothing too troublesome, this isn't a job, it's a voluntary act!).

Funny you should say that. There was a point in time where I thought the SeeD- like exam from FFVIII would have been fitting for mentorship. Just randomize the questions and answers so people can't just look up 'mentor exam' and add a timer. Even if outside questions and answers were provided on a separate website, with randomness, it would more-than-likely cause [some] people to memorize some of the content; they'd end up learning one way or another (and maybe even retain it). Don't need a perfect score, just a high enough one that you can pass as someone knowledgeable about the game. Possibly tack on a failed cooldown timer of 24 hours; seems overkill to make it longer and not much of a lock-out if it's shorter. Just something to keep people from constantly spamming it until they get a set of questions that make them pass.

[Theodric]

It doesn't really matter what requirements they choose to put in place - some players are going to do whatever is needed to get the mentor status for reasons other than wanting to help their fellow players. Unless the community support team is prepared to investigate and deal with people abusing the system more harshly then nothing is likely to change. Thankfully on Balmung, at least, I rarely see nasty mentors and even regular players speak up and offer advice if someone is new. There's definitely still bad apples...but perhaps many of them are just outside of Balmung?

[Vhailor]

Why would you kick someone without first attempting to quickly explain what they are failing to do to see if it helps them? They might actually welcome the advice and listen, but you kick without trying first...

I am not sure how offering advice in a cooperative style game is the same as a cop pulling someone over for breaking the law either...it's only advice it's not like the person giving advice is trying to arrest players and throw them in jail for failing to do something they just meant to offer them help. If these players don't want the help they can simply clarify that with a "thanks for trying to help me, but I wish to learn it on my own".

I mean that is much better than getting defensive right? So I still don't get why people have to be so uptight about advice. You can take it or ignore it; you don't need to get pissed off about it which I've seen far too many people do.

I agree that advice isn't equivalent to a cop handing out a citation, but the feel can be similar. Unless someone is VERY careful with their language (and the recipient in the right mood), being effectively told to do something can come across as an order / demand, triggering a negative reaction.

As for why I'd simply kick someone, I tend to believe that natural consequences are the best mechanism to bring about open-mindedness. They take awhile, and they don't always work, but it's my approach nonetheless. I might offer a bit of advice / criticism first, to see how they take it, but after the fact, I'd kick them. The theory being, if they get kicked enough times, eventually they might realize they're doing something wrong - and recognizing you have a problem is the first step to solving it.

Finally, yes, absolutely taking advice is better than getting defensive. The world would be a much better place if everyone could do that. Alas, human psychology simply doesn't allow for it all the time, or even the majority of the time; defensiveness is a natural (and common) reaction. If you ever find a way to defuse it, consistently and quickly, spread the word - it'll be one of the first steps toward world peace =)

[JunseiKei]

The theory being, if they get kicked enough times, eventually they might realize they're doing something wrong - and recognizing you have a problem is the first step to solving it.

The problem with that is if they also come with pre-mades, which I have also seen happen. You can't kick them if they bring at least one other person and it's a 4 person dungeon and you'll [possibly] end up getting kicked, though it might not happen until you're approaching the final boss. Even if you do manage to kick the person, there are many other runs with other people that will simply button their lip and suffer. Especially in the case of tanks, people don't want to have their tank rage quit, or be kicked, and then not have DF replace them because no tank happens to be queuing for in progress already. It just turns into wasted time for everyone, made worse if you're a DPS that has to wait in 30+ minute queues.

You have only minute control over your particular run, not every run someone else is doing. It honestly reads more like, "well, I can put up with this. Someone else will eventually talk sense into them, but I won't have to deal with it." Which is fine, but does not address the problem in a co-operative game.

Which brings me around to want to include my input to a previous post of yours. You asked what a mentor is and that SE would clarify it; honestly, it's not needed. Mentors are guides. A living guide. The thing is, anyone and everyone can be a mentor without the silly little icon. You just need the knowledge and the willingness to help. However, as I said before, once you have that icon and you wear it, others will expect you to step up and try to help soothe things over with under performing players (be mechanics or failing to do base role requirements).

Remember, there are plenty of people out there that have problems and refuse to accept they exist.

[Reinha]

Also as I'm keenly aware of the issue Atoli was bringing up and like the idea of tests as you could complete these very quickly (given you're skill level, and the test level you have to achieve could be based on the rank you want - basic mentor doesn't even need to do them I suggest, just a roulette mentor and higher requirements for higher tier mentors).

This kind of sounds like WoW's Proving Grounds. It had an Endless difficulty setting where defeating 30 waves of fights designed for your role earned you a title "Proven Healer/Tank/Assailant". Healers would heal and esuna/dispell their NPC party, Tanks would tank mobs and get healed by an NPC. Dps would kill mobs that healed each other, blocked attacks from a certain direction, had short windows of not being immune, spawned whilst having short timers before killing you, sent moving stun-blobs and threw debuffing projectiles to hinder your ability to beat the timer and to force you to keep moving.

Maybe this game could have something similar for each job to earn titles like "Proven Black Mage" or "Black Mage Mentor", and the mentor icons could remain a sign of your ability to guide people through content and the game in general. Then one could mentor a specific job even if they don't meet general mentor requirements, and general mentors could help with general questions even if they have not beaten the advanced job specific test. Experienced and skilled players could show both.

As an added bonus it would be new content for everyone stress free, drama free and working as an incentive to improve.

[seraf]

All the methods I can think of to filter out players for the Mentor system seem to always lead to the same result. You can't get rid of the players that abuse the system or are not helpful at all. Even if you raised the Commendation requirement to 3,000 and 200 Days Played you'd still have pretty much the same thing going on as you do now.