The Wanderer's Minuet and class-design frustrations

[Cetonis]

Your premise that WM has any chance of going away is wrong-headed from the outset. It's highly unlikely that's going to happen; SE doesn't want any part of having to balance around free mobility. Remember that their only answer to this in 2.x was to use the rubbish "but it's a support" non-argument to "justify" crippling Bard's damage output to a point where no amount of mobility gains could ever make up for it.

People who gave up on Bard after trying WM for a dungeon or two, or who don't play it at all - sure, they might think that losing WM is a good idea. The ones who currently play Bard at a high level, understand that that's not the issue at all.

The issue is that the confluence of (WM + River of Blood + lots of other oGCDs) just doesn't function properly. It's anti-synergistic and leads to a myriad of decision points that - while yes, in a vacuum more decisions means more skill - some of these judgment calls are frankly bulls**t in nature and have no place within the design philosophy of this game.

Trying to figure out on the fly whether a DoT tick that started a refresh animation that finished some variable tenths of a second later, came before/during/after a half-second window on your cast bar, and then responding appropriately within the next half second - that kind of thing belongs in competitive fighting games where people count frames, not an MMO that ostensibly uses a 2.5s GCD to allow room for forethought and attending to mechanics.

By far the most plausible route SE could take to address this, would be to overhaul River of Blood in some way. There's a semi-common expectation of some manner of charge/stack or storage system, especially with Yoshi talking about class-specific UIs. But it's kind of an open question as to how they might ultimately go about it.

And there's always a chance Yoshi was alluding to a re-focus on songs. If you recall, when 3.0 launched every Bard song save for Swiftsong came with a 3s cast, and it took a lot of pressure for them to back off of that inch by inch. I wouldn't be surprised at all if there a rework aimed at making Bard songs powerful enough to justify giving them long casts again.

[MPNZ]

...

Yeah, they totally should try and lessen the amount of action upkeep for Bard, focus more on songs... Because I almost never know just when I have to sing right now... And, maybe allow us to still move and shoot, but removes the dmg buff when we move or sing, IMO. It's really jarring, but what really hurts is all of the actions that we're currently managing.

[The_Last_Dragoon]

snip

Yeah, though I kinda liked 3.X Bard because it required quicker thinking than some of the other classes and that the whole thing ran on a balance. I'm open to whatever changes they choose to bring in the next expansion, but I hope they don't throw out the OGCDs because that's something that I really do like about the class.

Yeah, they totally should try and lessen the amount of action upkeep for Bard, focus more on songs... Because I almost never know just when I have to sing right now... And, maybe allow us to still move and shoot, but removes the dmg buff when we move or sing, IMO. It's really jarring, but what really hurts is all of the actions that we're currently managing.

Are there a lot of actions? I think Summoner and Ninja are worse (Ninjas practically require macros and have insane upkeep), though honestly I think the whole game has become action heavy since Heavensward. That's why so many people are asking for an overhaul or at least some passives for 4.X.

On a side note, there are really only two songs you need to worry about, Mage's Ballad and Foe's Requiem. You should really only pop Battle Voice with FR, and MB should only be a last resort if the healers are hurting for mp. In terms of WM, you should really have it on 24/7, as there's very few occasions in PVE where you have to move that much while the boss is still targetable.

[Greedalox]

- just flat out further increase WM bonus damage, the lack of AA somehow make our 30% bonus attack seems bogus

This is exceptionally confusing to me? Bards damage isn't low for what they're expected to do, so just a flat damage increase? That would just put them above and beyond. Unless you're referring to decreasing all of Bards potency's to compensate? Which case it's pretty much an overall nerf in the instances where you have to remove WM in a movement heavy ordeal.

[MPNZ]

Are there a lot of actions? I think Summoner and Ninja are worse (Ninjas practically require macros and have insane upkeep), though honestly I think the whole game has become action heavy since Heavensward. That's why so many people are asking for an overhaul or at least some passives for 4.X.

On a side note, there are really only two songs you need to worry about, Mage's Ballad and Foe's Requiem. You should really only pop Battle Voice with FR, and MB should only be a last resort if the healers are hurting for mp. In terms of WM, you should really have it on 24/7, as there's very few occasions in PVE where you have to move that much while the boss is still targetable.

Yeah, it is a serious problem all the way across the board but WM has this really annoying ability to just form habits against singing. It literally runs counter to it's support functions, IMO.

[The_Last_Dragoon]

Yeah, it is a serious problem all the way across the board but WM has this really annoying ability to just form habits against singing. It literally runs counter to it's support functions, IMO.

I think that has more to do with the fact that a Bard will pretty much never sing when they're leveling and when solo. Especially with old content becoming easier due to veterans being thrown into the DF, you rarely ever get the chance to take advantage of your utility as a Bard outside of end-game content. So essentially for anyone who either took a break before hitting 50 or simply didn't play much of 2.X end game, there's no situational awareness for these players as to when they should sing.

[gumas]

^and to add that out of 3 song, 2 of them give you 10% damage penalty which make people even more so to avoid using it

[Mirateski]

I like Minuet. I think GB feels a lot more natural on MCH, but taking time to aim and gauge a shot in exchange for more damage seems sensible to me.

Most of the poeple I see complaining about it are annoyed that they have to stand still? Like outside of maybe four or five specific fights why are you moving around so much anyway, gosh. There's not even that many skills to manage, not really - one of the reasons I have trouble with melee dps is that there's just so much to frigging do, not to mention positionals as well.

The idea of songs being an mp-cost buff with an aura sounds AMAZING, why on earth did they remove that??? We have battle litany and mantra as AoE spreads, not to mention AST's cards, and the idea of being able to pop TP song on a monk, MP song on the suffering healers, and foes on the enemy sounds fantastic. To be honest, I've heard a lot about how bard used to have the AoE raise as their lb3 and that would be nice to see returning as well, although MCH having it would be... odd. (And I really love the animation for satellite beam)

Plus, songs having an mp cost and done would remove that irritating double bard "oh hey I know I'll sing mages so the other bard can play foe longer" thing that so many bards have the weird idea is better than juggling foes for some bizarre reason.

[Judge_Xero]

The issue is that the confluence of (WM + River of Blood + lots of other oGCDs) just doesn't function properly.

This is my only issue with BRD and WM. Not only does it effect the flow of it's oGCD skills but it lowers the effectiveness of CRT. If it had the weaving potential of MCH including weaving it's songs between attacks it would a masterpiece.

[MPNZ]

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It's just the sudden change in the way that the class is played and that many players found enjoyment because of its mobility, which is exacerbated by its established skill set. Machinist are so much easier to do midcore content with than Bards right now, IMO.